The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Rules Revisions => Topic started by: GerbilSoft on November 23, 2008, 09:47:37 pm
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In Lava Reef 1, you can't destroy a badnik which came from the same origin as a badnik you already destroyed.
Suggested by SpinDashMaster, added 2008/11/23.
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highly old, discussed, and in dozens and dozens of other levels, the most infamous one being hilltop zone. it was never banned because there is no possibility of an infinite score like most score situations in secret rings due to the advent of "time over"; it is merely something that is long and tedious to do if you want the best record, which in this day and age's competition is pretty standard.
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*cough* Adv2 scalping
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highly old, discussed, and in dozens and dozens of other levels, the most infamous one being hilltop zone. it was never banned because there is no possibility of an infinite score like most score situations in secret rings due to the advent of "time over"; it is merely something that is long and tedious to do if you want the best record, which in this day and age's competition is pretty standard.
Sorry, but please name a few more levels. The Hill Top one requires breaking rocks repeatedly, and require Sonic to move far enough away and return. I have it from good authority (SDM here: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=3875.0 (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=3875.0) - yay for circular hyperlinks) that the Lava Reef badniks can be combo'd in a single spindash, which IIRC is similar to the birds in Launch Base, where the same rule already exists.
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what I think makes this questionable and launch base obvious is you actually have to move for LR1, you can just spin in place and let the birds come to you in LB.
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Alright. I checked this out myself, and I can safely say that this is nothing like the LB birds. All you have to do there is hold down for seven-eight minutes. In this case you have to consistently go back and forth. Same as Hill Top, Mushroom Hill, Atomic Destroyer, every SAdv Score, and every SSR mission with a timer and a rail. The only thing that makes LR stick out is that the score is like WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HIGH and somehow that makes for a reason as to why we should ban it. It's not infinite, and it takes more strategy to get the highest score than SAdv2 scores. I say it should be legal.
Also, on a similar note, I searched Act 2 for a similar spot and only Knuckles has a spot where these large combos are possible.
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I vote unban for reasons sited by SkyL... mostly because I thought it was the "bounce off an enemy and go so high it respawns, then fall down on it again for inf combo" thing that was found a few years back...
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Admin bump.
The general tone of this topic seems to be that they want this rule removed. This bump is because a similar issue cropped up in Mushroom Hill that led us to ban it across the game as a whole, and the Rules Committee has been largely unresponsive about it. So if you have a particular stance on this ruling across all of S3&K (Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, Lava Reef), speak now or forever hold you peace. I'll check back when the topic dies down and bug SonicAD about making the majority ruling the norm.
Note that it's highly likely that this topic will be used as precedent in future debates about spam scoring. If your opinion reaches over to Hill Top rock spamming, Sonic Advance 2 mid-air trick action spamming, or anything similar, make your case.
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The goal of the site, as I understand it, is that we're aiming for the highest competitive stats. We Outlaw'd Gamma's Hot Shelter because it went infinite, we outlawed Flag Bouncing because it's infinite, we outlaw'd botnik sitting on those turrets spawning hundreds of thousands of points because it's infinite.
If there's a timer, the spam isn't infinite, unless it maxes the counter. Rather, timing and speed are still valued (both how fast you can pull off the spam and how much time you need to get to the end afterwards).
This also goes to S2 (HT, the rock breaking), to SAdva2 trick bonuses, and anywhere else... ban it if it goes infinite or maxes the counter, leave it alone if it's simply abuse of a mechanic.
Yes, I realize that LB would explode, and I don't care, heh
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I'm pretty much in line with Aitamen's response. It's silly to ban techniques that push clearly defined boundaries (the Time Over aspect of the old games) to the limit. It really doesn't matter how big the number gets as long as there's a limit imposed on the score. Even in LB, if you sit there for the 8 minutes of spindashing at the beginning, you're still not going to get an infinitely large score or get anywhere close to maximizing the score value.
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If it were difficult and not simply tedious, I wouldn't mind it. But it doesn't sound to be very difficult <__<
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If it were difficult and not simply tedious, I wouldn't mind it. But it doesn't sound to be very difficult <__<
is :08 difficult? how about the magic 67 in SC? What about :13-:14 GH2?
Or hell, what about waiting for the perfect first dig that nets a mag-shield in a hunting level, for m2's for SA2(B)? I'm sure THAT'S real skill intensive! YEAH!
Just because half of something is boring or tedious doesn't mean it's removed from the chart. If it has value in a competitive sense, it deserves to be here, in my mind. I do not speak for everyone, I'm aware, but we are a competitive site, after all.
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If this time limited scalping isn't allowed, then Marble 2 has to be looked at for the respawining breakaway blocks.
I'm for removing it.
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The levels that I know of that are effected are:
S1
M2 (Blocks)
S2
HT (rocks)
S3&K
MH: gophers
LB: alarm bird things
LR: respawning roll combo
everything in SAdva2
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is :08 difficult? how about the magic 67 in SC? What about :13-:14 GH2?
Or hell, what about waiting for the perfect first dig that nets a mag-shield in a hunting level, for m2's for SA2(B)? I'm sure THAT'S real skill intensive! YEAH!
Just because half of something is boring or tedious doesn't mean it's removed from the chart. If it has value in a competitive sense, it deserves to be here, in my mind. I do not speak for everyone, I'm aware, but we are a competitive site, after all.
yo dawg, Thorn wanted us to express our feelings on the subject. I'm seriously doubting that you're going to convince me otherwise, but you can continue if you wish.
Yes, HP-K 0:08 does take skill. That's why some people have it and some don't. Same with GH2. I don't really care for the Sky Chase Rings ranking, it seems pretty arbitrary to me. I don't care about SA2(B) or 3D Sonic in general, so whatever about that one. XD
So I suppose that it would indeed take skill to speed to the roll combo area, roll combo for as long as possible, and then finish quickly. So whatever. My opinion still stays as it was previously.
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I don't play 3D sonic, really, but I still have respect for the amount of time poured into getting a low time in those runs. The question isn't "would you enjoy doing it", but rather, "if we allow this, does it remain competitive" and "would this idea be beneficial to the site, both in theme as a precedent for future rulings, and for Sitewide/champion rankings"
I don't think this argument goes the route of "rings and scores are boring, we should just have times charts!"...
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....okay...?
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In my opinion we should delete all the charts that Aitamen listed. While I agree that having a record over 400K points for a certain stage is awesome to impress newbies, getting decent scores on charts like that involve boring strategies that nobody sane would enjoy. I think that deleting them is a better idea than imposing a random cap which in some cases you couldn't tell if you violated.
But when it comes to deleting charts, TSC tends to be pretty conservative so I don't think people will like this idea. If I have to choose between imposing a random cap and allowing the scalp, I pick the latter.
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I don't think a cap was ever mentioned: it's either legalize or ban and remove the charts (freestyle?) at this point.
and if your only reason to ban it is "we don't enjoy it", I have a ton of things I, and everyone else, have done that we didn't like that I'm sure we'd like to not have had to do.
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I don't think a cap was ever mentioned
It was mentioned recently. In a topic posted on a board that you can't access.
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so I'm missing half the argument? that kinda sucks >_>
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why aren't i in this rules committee? i should be makin the rules
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getting decent scores on charts like that involve boring strategies that nobody sane would enjoy
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_the_hedgehog
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So it's been a week without any updates in this topic, and the consensus seems to be to allow point spam anywhere that a time constraint prevents infinite scores. I'm bugging SonicAD about making this the rule across all games tomorrow.
If you have thoughts to the contrary, speak now or forever hold your peace.
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I'm changing the rules right now in line with the responses in the topic. Score spam is now allowed in most any game provided that it's limited by time; exceptions to the rule will be made as problems are discovered.
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revision is fucking stupid
Hooray, now I get to spindash for about 8.5 minutes 3 times. I would much rather simply soft-ban it on LB1, meaning you can do it but everyone will hate you and not respect your stat at all. Like I'm feeling @ Aitamen right now. Cuz it's lame.
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revision is fucking stupid
Hooray, now I get to spindash for about 8.5 minutes 3 times. I would much rather simply soft-ban it on LB2, meaning you can do it but everyone will hate you and not respect your stat at all. Like I'm feeling @ Aitamen right now. Cuz it's lame.
first off, LB1**
If you really hate me because I got a stat that requires a little patience, you have bigger problems... you think it's any less boring to SD for eight minutes than it is to retry every 8 seconds on average for EH? or for it to work in something else?
Then again, purists will be purists.
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I was simply exaggerating. No, I don't hate you. I do not respect the score you obtained on LB1-STK, however.
The reason you would need to retry on EH is because of a player mistake. The boring part isn't a factor, either, or else all of the 3-D games would be banned too, amirite? The point is that it's not skillful. You sit there, spindash for 9 minutes (faster if you use an emulator and frame skip EDIT: apparently that's just wayy too good and unfair to those who don't use emulators, so nvm), and then use the zip for Sonic and Knuckles. For Tails, you do have to do some actual TAing, but it's still stupidness. Considering I'm ranked 3rd for Sonic, 2nd for Tails, and 2nd for Knuckles in Times, this really isn't a problem for me to do. In fact, I've gotten 2334200 with Knuckles and 2344200 with Sonic (he's faster against the boss with a higher jump & his insta-shield attack). I haven't even tried with Tails yet, but I'm pretty sure I can get over 2 million EDIT: 2043700 with Tails. 96 rings. I don't want to submit these stats because it's stupid and if competition really ends up being a matter of who can spindash for the longest while still finishing the level, then what kind of competition site is this?
Yes, you legitimately obtain that score in-game, but we don't let people hit the signpost infinitely, or finish at 9:59, do we? No, we don't. Why is this so special of a case?
I suppose I'm being all scrubby or something, but this is my view. Normally I really don't care about what's used (zips, the time-stop and various zips required for LB2R-T, etc.) to obtain stats, but this crosses the line in my opinion.
And I'm not going to "hold my peace" on this because I didn't beforehand, either.
EDIT: Btw, LB2 was a typo since I was typing on my iPod <__<
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well, there's still some edge you're seeing, but not admitting to: it's still a contest of who can get to the end the fastest, and who has the most courage.
If you don't sub your superior stats, then you're saying I'm better than you, OF YOUR OWN CHOOSING.
be a moron all you want, but don't bitch because my scores are higher.
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I don't really care if your scores are higher than mine. In fact, I don't care if 20 people's scores are higher than mine on that level due to spam. I'm still better than you and everyone else (sans Smizzla) at the entirety of S3. If I'm a moron, what does that make you?
hint: flaming doesn't help in a debate.
Yes, it's a contest of who can end the fastest. Interestingly, enough we track that one too! (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_3/times/launch_base_1) Redundant charts ftw!
If Thorn/the rest of the Rules Committee are just going to say "fuck you" to my post and previous posts in this topic, then I guess I'll just submit my scores. A post confirming this inference would be nice.
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there's still the measuring of time before you take off to win... if you didn't clear it in 9:58 or something similar, it can still be done faster.
it's a different run, and a different playstyle... if you don't like it, don't play.
Also, I deny that you're better than me. I'm working on other titles.
What you have now can easily be outdone, and by multitudes, as Smiz and Eredani and sprint have already shown... While I'm not as talented as the rest, many would say I'm driven enough that it's inconsequential.
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[20:00] <+Strong_Bad> thorn: read my post kthx
[20:02] <@Thorn> SB, sorry, but I'm quite sick of this debate and the "majority" opinion was to allow all time-limited spam
[20:02] <@Thorn> where "majority" means "vocal minority"
[20:02] <@Thorn> if the true majority wants their voices heard, they could start by opening their mouths
So there you have it. This isn't to say I think either viewpoint is better. -- I'm personally in favor of a cap on spam, but that view is to maintain fun and not competition so it really doesn't mean shit -- but when there's a split in opinions like this, precedent such as the Sonic R glitch debate has said to allow everything, and that's what the vocal minority has asked for. If anybody wants to disallow spam, start by saying something, since this new ruling won't be changed if only Strong Bad's opinion differs.
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there's still the measuring of time before you take off to win... if you didn't clear it in 9:58 or something similar, it can still be done faster.
I cleared all 3 in 9:59 (subtracting 99900 as per SadisticMystic's ruling on the problem of 9:59 via IRC), naturally. I do not half-ass anything. Tails is not maxed, I will say, and I suppose neither are Sonic or Knuckles and I won't be able to find that out until I TAS it first.
it's a different run, and a different playstyle
so then it should be in freestyle.
Also, I deny that you're better than me. I'm working on other titles.
I lol'd a bit... all talk and no action. I made a topic last year stating that I was going to be the Sonic 3 Champion, granted, but then I followed up on it.
What you have now can easily be outdone, and by multitudes, as Smiz and Eredani and sprint have already shown... While I'm not as talented as the rest, many would say I'm driven enough that it's inconsequential.
What I have now can be outdone as Eredani and Sprint have shown? So is that why that none of those people have faster times than I do, which is now apparently the part that matters in the Scores (lolz) section?
oh well, Thorn already made this debate pointless unless I call SpinDashMaster and make him post!!
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I think you should put the rule against spamming alarms back because I don't holding a spindash for 8 minutes should be a competition.
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but that doesn't matter fuzzerd, if Sonic Team didn't prevent it then it should clearly be allowed for competition.
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^ Protip: sarcastic remarks at people on your side will not aid your argument.
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so you mean I can't be satirical about the arguments of those against me?
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Oh, you can, but don't expect the other side to cave due to that sort of talk, and don't expect it to make your side seem stronger. I'm looking for the most popular opinion because it's been decided that there will always be an argument for each side, so you'd be better off trying to solicit responses than take potshots at other people.
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I might not have a particularly strong opinion on this, and I might be way behind on the debate, but I guess I might as well try and post anyway.
It really depends on the players' unanimity of whether the charts are "boring" or "pointless". One way to look at it is that the rankings are made as a service to our competitors, since the competitors are the ones who are using the rankings. Therefore, we should try to form the charts/rules to make the playing experience better, whenever reasonable (while maintaining reasonable integrity of the rankings). In our case, I think all the cases (S1,2,3,&K and SAdva2) seem similar enough to lump into one decision; one would expect about 5-8 minutes of repetitive point scalping. So it's just up to the preference of those who are really playing the games.
If we decide to do something, then as for the options:
Make a rule - Making a rule against point scalping tricks generally seems too difficult, because repeatedly gaining points a few times (say 2 to 5) tends to be a natural part of gameplay, and making a cap is too arbitrary.
Delete charts - I agree with Zeupar that this seems better than the rule option. But sometimes people still enjoy playing with the point scalping option (or enjoy getting very high scores for the sake of it). Also, sometimes non-point scalpers may want to show their scores out of pride, even if it doesn't earn them the highest rank. I think these are legitimate concerns that a ranking charts system should address. Deleting the charts doesn't really satisfy these concerns.
Freestyle charts - For the reasons stated above, this would be my preference.
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My only issue with freestyle is that it's not worth anything, and I think that all aspects of a game should be included when considering who the dedicated master of a game is. As has been seen, freestyle charts don't often get competition because they aren't worth points (and a fair deal of people compete in games just for sitewide, or just for game%, they play levels they don't enjoy). If we want our charts to look at human maximums and minimums, shouldn't all of these be charted? I know that running the level and sonic/supersonic/hypersonic for three times seems lame to most people (and worse in S2/S2&K, surely), but... hmm... I guess it's similar to the considerations of adding new Times charts for SCD?
I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense... I've been ill all day, and I'm trying to put my ideas here while I'm having them, since I'm not sure who's heard what in the chatroom.