The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Competition Central => Topic started by: P.P.A. on January 16, 2009, 06:59:20 am
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When people actually played and competed in it? The rivalries between Groudon, Bertin and me, when Kmacc came and beat us all in fully honest and genuine competition? Ahh, good times...
I wish they could return one day.
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Oh, and just when I thought you'd gotten the hint too. Damn.
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Hey, remember when Sonic R was fun?
No.
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Honestly I would like normal Sonic R too, but meh.
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I'd have to agree. I used to enjoy Sonic R competition because it was one of (if not the) most pure competition on TSC, but no longer.
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Quick idea: You continue playing SR the natural way?
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I also agree. I liked at least trying to compete in Sonic R. Closest thing the game had to a glitch route used to be Radical City in Reverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYnAWSPNhF4). Now, the entire game is more or less full of glitch routes.
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Quick idea: You continue playing SR the natural way?
Well yeah, I can, but it's not worth competing if you're not glitching, because you won't be competitive.
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Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait............Sonic R was fun? *shot*
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Quick idea: You continue playing SR the natural way?
I would if it was at least remotely productive concerning the charts.
No.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait............Sonic R was fun? *shot*
/me shoot Dhaos and Kitsune for having a terrible taste.
/me shoots Dhaos again for fun.
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Quick idea: You continue playing SR the natural way?
Well yeah, I can, but it's not worth competing if you're not glitching, because you won't be competitive.
So compete not to get to the top of the charts but against other people who play the normal way. >_>
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Quick idea: You continue playing SR the natural way?
Well yeah, I can, but it's not worth competing if you're not glitching, because you won't be competitive.
So compete not to get to the top of the charts but against other people who play the normal way. >_>
But as a rule, people compete to show skill and try to become the best, so how many people are willingly going to compete in a manner that won't get them high ranks? Why race for 2nd place? (or worse)
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The same people who refuse to compete at all to do what it takes to get the highest ranks. From what I've heard you can still get red in SR without glitching, and the way TSC's set up you can compete with anyone on the charts, not just the top times, so if you have an objection to the way the top times were achieved there's no reason you can't compete for the best non-glitched time.
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why is this brought up?
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I also agree. I liked at least trying to compete in Sonic R. Closest thing the game had to a glitch route used to be Radical City in Reverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYnAWSPNhF4). Now, the entire game is more or less full of glitch routes.
Man I don't even mess with Sonic R anymore because of the glitches. Same reason I don't mess with Sonic 06. All you mainly do is break through a wall and spin in circles...whoever does that the fastest wins....now tell me....you think that is worth playing or competing?
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This has come up a lot, recently... I think it's kinda funny.
Alondite, you don't really try in anything here, so I'm honestly curious as to why you're so bent-out-of-shape?
Bertin deserves his credit for taking FZFA in SR for non-glitched, and while I think that's awesome, it's not an effective way of getting ultra-low stats.
The only way I can think it unfair is if you don't know the glitches...
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I still keep track of all of my non-glitch PRs, and still try to lower those times despite the fact that they won't help at all on the charts. :)
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The same people who refuse to compete at all to do what it takes to get the highest ranks. From what I've heard you can still get red in SR without glitching, and the way TSC's set up you can compete with anyone on the charts, not just the top times, so if you have an objection to the way the top times were achieved there's no reason you can't compete for the best non-glitched time.
Except we don't have charts for non-glitching, so your times get lost among those who glitch poorly, or those who play the level well non-glitching.
To answer your question Aita, I'm busy most of the time, and have other games I would rather play when I can. I I don't care to glitch because it saps every ounce of fun from the game, and why compete if you aren't enjoying yourself. It's not like Track & Field where you can compete for the sole purpose of getting in good physical condition, even if you aren't racing to win. What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games? None. You waste your time, and I for one don't think it's worth it. I play video games for fun, and glitching is not at all fun to me because it takes out all the enjoyable aspects of the game design, and quite frankly, competing in video games is pointless if you aren't enjoying yourself.
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Except we don't have charts for non-glitching, so your times get lost among [...] those who play the level well non-glitching.
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But anyway, I meant a smaller competition between a few people. Like in the case of this topic, Groudon, bertin, and PPA could compete to try to top each other instead of the charts. >_>
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*parts edited out*
I I don't care to glitch because it saps every ounce of fun from the game, and why compete if you aren't enjoying yourself. What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games? None. You waste your time, and I for one don't think it's worth it. I play video games for fun, and glitching is not at all fun to me because it takes out all the enjoyable aspects of the game design, and quite frankly, competing in video games is pointless if you aren't enjoying yourself.
The line "What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games?" shows that you compete for acheivement. If you competed solely for fun, as you say in the first line, then it wouldn't matter if you get 1st or 40th on the chart. This post contradicts itself.
Basically, if you solely care about fun, you shouldn't care that you aren't on top of the chart. If you care about topping the chart, than fun shouldn't be prioritized over speed.
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You guys can just go beat my SR times, I used to be Champ you know!
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*parts edited out*
I I don't care to glitch because it saps every ounce of fun from the game, and why compete if you aren't enjoying yourself. What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games? None. You waste your time, and I for one don't think it's worth it. I play video games for fun, and glitching is not at all fun to me because it takes out all the enjoyable aspects of the game design, and quite frankly, competing in video games is pointless if you aren't enjoying yourself.
The line "What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games?" shows that you compete for acheivement. If you competed solely for fun, as you say in the first line, then it wouldn't matter if you get 1st or 40th on the chart. This post contradicts itself.
Basically, if you solely care about fun, you shouldn't care that you aren't on top of the chart. If you care about topping the chart, than fun shouldn't be prioritized over speed.
Wow, how typical of a response. Is it possible that you can compete for achievement AND have fun? I guess that thought never crossed your mind. Fact is, competing can be fun, but placing poorly after a lot of practice and hard work simply because you choose not to glitch is not fun. I was fully prepared for this answer, given that so many people lack the ability to read into things beyond the obvious.
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...Can anyone explain how these Sonic R OOB tricks are any different from Balloon Park?
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...Can anyone explain how these Sonic R OOB tricks are any different from Balloon Park?
Balloon Park is one level. These OoB tricks exist (and save time) on every track in Sonic R.
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I think he means why is Balloon Park banned when the Sonic R tricks aren't.
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Right... it's because balloon park is a single level, while the OOB tricks in Sonic R are an entire game.
That doesn't explain why Balloon Park is banned.
Edit: Also, "it affects the entire game" would be more reason to ban it honestly...
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The general agreement was that balloon park comes down to a single jump before all skill is taken out of the question. The shortcut in balloon park demolishes the concept of skill by making the leader the fastest at a jump. Sonic R still has skill involved once breaking out of bounds, as the leaderboards to this day show.
Anyway, I agree that the two levels are similar, which is why there was intended to be discussion for reinstituting balloon part, That never happened.
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The general agreement was that balloon park comes down to a single jump before all skill is taken out of the question.
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/collision_chaos_3/acts
BP is barely different from that heh
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What benefits do you gain from not competing for 1st in video games?
Well (http://soniccenter.org/members/fastnaturedude/awards), I'm not that good at Sonic (http://soniccenter.org/members/fastnaturedude). I rarely get first place, and when I do, it's a tie. I don't compete for first. I compete because I love TSC. :<
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I do (or did. Would still, if I wasn't so lazy.) enjoy competing in Sonic CD aiming to get to rank 3 in most of the charts, knowing that I will most likely never reach the skill level of maggot and Sprint. However I could look up to them and accept their superiority because they honestly got those records by investing a lot of time and sweat into them and because they possess speedrunning abilities far beyond mine.
Competing in a chart knowing you'll never reach the first place because the leader(s) are doing nothing but run around in tiny circles outside of the level isn't very motivating though.
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If enough people really wanted to, I'm sure there's a way we could keep track of at least the records that don't involve OOB.
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I would jump on that boat for EVERY game on the site, not just Sonic R. Like, have charts for non-glitching, in addition to the other charts.
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If enough people really wanted to, I'm sure there's a way we could keep track of at least the records that don't involve OOB.
Sounds like the SDA.
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If enough people really wanted to, I'm sure there's a way we could keep track of at least the records that don't involve OOB.
Sounds like the SDA.
Not any more! Even they have realised that if the game allows you to do it, it's fair, and have allowed OOB in submissions.
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Well I'm sure someone can organize something, it doesn't even have to be official or anything. Just something to keep track of any non-glitch records amongst whoever wants to participate.
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If nothing else, we could just have a forum topic for it.
/me points to RR's old misc SA2 competition topic
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That'd work too. I'd try to make something out of it myself but I wouldn't know where to start. I can always try to help though so if anyone has any ideas, let me know. :)
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If enough people really wanted to, I'm sure there's a way we could keep track of at least the records that don't involve OOB.
Sounds like the SDA.
Not any more! Even they have realised that if the game allows you to do it, it's fair, and have allowed OOB in submissions.
when the OOB, clipping, or warping glitches let you skip large chunks of the game, including whole stages, such as Metroid Prime's secret worlds or Castlevania: Circle of the Moon's summon warp, then it will be a separate category.
I think my comment still stands.
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There's always freestyle!
*snicker*
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Possibly tighten up the SR rules for the main charts and save all the OOB and other such hax for the freestyle boards?
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While that does sound correct, if we were to actually go through with this they'd probably just leave it and put the nonhax on freestyle so people don't have to resubmit :/
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Put nonhax on freestyle? That doesn't make much sense. Shouldn't it be the other way around?
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Exactly, but people aren't going to like having to resub an entire chart because we finally decided to listen to (many) people pleading to restore order.
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I personally wouldn't mind.
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That's because you're perpetuating this. I'm talking about other random people that don't spend a lot of time on TSC.
Maybe there's a way to move stats from Time to Freestyle? Rolk? SM? Gerbil?
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That's because you're perpetuating this. I'm talking about other random people that don't spend a lot of time on TSC.
Maybe there's a way to move stats from Time to Freestyle? Rolk? SM? Gerbil?
The people at the bottom of the charts who never play the game have never played Sonic R with glitches anyway, so their stats can stay. And the one with glitch stats almost all support the removal of them, so they probably wouldn't mind having to resubmit their old ones if that could make it happen.
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:/
I guess whatever works works and whatever doesn't doesn't.
The revival of Sonic R might be just what I need to kick myself back into gear for competition actually
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Same here in fact. Even though it will still have a much lower priority than it used to, compared to other things~
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Like your new online relationship?
(yeah I realize you just left, I can wait)
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Okay I just thought of something that could mean a lot to this debate.
Think guys. Imagine this, no matter how unlikely or impossible it may be:
Imagine a glitch is discovered in SA2(B). This glitch makes it so that in any level with a Goal ring or point, you can reach it in seconds via a certain chain of commands (something like DsS's SU360 glitch). This effectively neutralizes competition for anything besides bosses or hunting missions. Would you ban the technique?
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Imagine a glitch is discovered in SA2(B). This glitch makes it so that in any level with a Goal ring or point, you can reach it in seconds via a certain chain of commands (something like DsS's SU360 glitch). This effectively neutralizes competition for anything besides bosses or hunting missions. Would you ban the technique?
No. Of course, this would assume that levels in SA2 turn around on themselves, like a racing game (Sonic R). And in that case, this would have been found even before TSC was created. It would be history.
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No, I don't mean as in a racing game looping around, I mean performing a complex but easy glitch that is possible in every level, that instantly finishes the level. Would you ban that? Why or why not?
And let's say it was just found, so it wouldn't be history. What then?
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Going back a bit: The people who don't hang around TSC too much will probably not even know that their stats have been nuked if in fact the charts can't be moved. I wouldn't mind resubmitting at all, even though my stats aren't glitch stats anyway >_>.
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I think it's important to point out that you can't put out a hypothetical situation whose solution depends entirely on the details, and then tell us to "forget how unpractical a situation is".
Are we talking a chain of button commands that, regardless of level design, causes sonic to warp to the goal ring? Are we talking about a glitch that ends up being a major OOB shortcut that's found in every level?
You are trying to posit that there is some glitch that, by means of complex button pressing glitches, finishes the sa2 level.
I can't just -throw- out details, they are crucial to the answer. Since it is impractical for this to be anything except a glitch that, according to no use of sonic mechanics, finishes the level instantly, I'd have to say it would probably be banned. This glitch would have no competitive value, and, despite the parallels you're trying to fabricate, would be a very different case from sonic r.
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I think it's important to point out that you can't put out a hypothetical situation whose solution depends entirely on the details, and then tell us to "forget how unpractical a situation is".
I was hoping you'd come in and put into words this exact statement.
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Ok yeah forget it, I was busy being a noob yesterday and not using logic >_>
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Bleh, I don't even care whether it goes onto the official charts or not. I just want people to give me competition on my non-glitch times. Nobody is very close to a lot of my times... If I needed to make more vids to help people with strats I would be more than willing, I'd just need a good quality camera.
I want people making it hard for me to get records!
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I'm most amused by WHO is supporting glitching, as opposed to why.
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Are you saying I have no business arbitrating competition in Sonic R? Or do you think I'm amusing for some other reason? Or was that not directed at me? If not, who was it directed at?
Don't make vague statements that could be interpreted as personal attacks, especially when this is a battle of logical reasoning. If you can't beat the pro-glitchers using arguments, don't resort to "you pro-glitchers amuse me". We have provided arguments with substance, several times. If you have a reasonable retaliation, let's hear it. Otherwise, stop whining about how unfun glitching is. You are NOT required to do it. You can easily compete amongst yourselves without glitching. TSC charts are meant for the fastest times, and if you don't personally agree with the rules of the TSC charts, don't compete on them. Make your own charts. Or do compete on the TSC charts, and keep your personal glitchless integrity intact.
This argument is seriously frustrating.
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Your response for one is what is amusing, and the fact that you are taking this seriously enough for it to be "seriously frustrating." It's a video game, and it's not even one you want to compete in. Here's what I want to know: If TSC if for the fastest times period, then why is ANYTHING banned? If glitching is allowed, why not allow anything if it means getting the best scores/times, etc? Where do we draw that arbitrary line and why? It's ok for some glitching to be allowed and some not to be? I thought we go for the absolute best here, not "the best within a certain set of rules." I think that there's enough interest in "pure" competition to warrant separate boards for it. I bet there are more people who would be interested in pure competition than submitting on the freestyle boards.
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We draw that "arbitrary line" at glitches that remove competitive value. If a glitch resets the timer, regardless of how well a player played, then it's a bannable glitch. If a glitch provides for infinite score, then it's a bannable glitch. If a glitch is still going to leave the better players on top, it is allowable.
I also think it's silly how you're telling me not to be frustrated over a video game; I'm not a part of the party who is continually making topics saying "glitches are ruining this for me :(". If it's just a video game, and you're quick to tell me that, why do you care what our charts are like? Clearly video games are a little more than a novel pastime at TSC; this site is built around competitive sonic playing. We are going to take video games a little more seriously.
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Your response for one is what is amusing, and the fact that you are taking this seriously enough for it to be "seriously frustrating." It's a video game, and it's not even one you want to compete in.
We pride ourselves on being some of the best in the world... I suppose you don't look at it this way, for a number of reasons, but, there's something rather amazing about being able to call yourself the best in the world at anything...
I bet there are more people who would be interested in pure competition than submitting on the freestyle boards.
It's not that we don't encourage pure competition, it's that we don't reward it... There are other places that do.
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I say remove the Sonic R charts completely. It's obvious that nobody cares about them that much.
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Most Sarcastic Member of the Year indeed.
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Why not compete again? I would be glad to try to beat your times with no glitches...
Sonic R FTW
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Well, I'll start competing in the Sonic R times and such. [I did win first, with, Tails Doll? once.]
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Please please please attempt to beat my non-glitch times. If you need it I guess I could get a list together of my times based on old ones I had on this site. I've beaten some I'm sure but I haven't always recorded all my records, so if I find the correct memory card I can get a more updated list.
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It seems like there are a fair number of people who want to play Sonic R glitch-free (myself included). Personally I think we should have some kind of a vote in favor of overhauling the rules for the game to maybe give it some competitive value again.
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I don't think it's going to be changed on the site no matter how many people petition it. That doesn't mean we can't compete though. We just need some other outside ranking, like a thread for it or something.
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It seems like there are a fair number of people who want to play Sonic R glitch-free (myself included). Personally I think we should have some kind of a vote in favor of overhauling the rules for the game to maybe give it some competitive value again.
I'll say it for what's probably the fourtieth time.
You can still submit your no glitch times.
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But if the point is to be competitive, and the non-glitch times are not competitive, then what's the point? It's like racing a top fuel dragster with a Hyundai Tiburon. Sure, you get to race, but you have zero chance of winning. Seriously, why are you so against anti-glitch competition?
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Add a freestyle bracket that allows glitches.
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But if the point is to be competitive, and the non-glitch times are not competitive, then what's the point? It's like racing a top fuel dragster with a Hyundai Tiburon. Sure, you get to race, but you have zero chance of winning. Seriously, why are you so against anti-glitch competition?
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That doesn't mean you disallow dragsters to make it fair for the hyundai owner.
Most charts have only one or two (out of forty) glitch stats. That leaves positions 3-40 to be filled by those who want to use a more "legitimate" way. I'd hardly say there isn't reward in getting third place. If that's what you think, then you're quite the perfectionist. I'm thrilled with third place stats.
And I think there's a distinction you can't get out of your head. I am not against anti-glitch competition. If you guys want to make your own forum to compete, I have no problem with that. If you want to use TSC's charts as a medium for the competition (even though you won't get 1st place), I have no problem with that. You guys are -just- as allowed to compete as the glitch users. What I -am- against is disallowing glitches. And if you're really questioning why that is, you haven't been reading any of my posts for months.
As for adding freestyle, it's a nonoption. Nobody plays freestyle. As I've said before, freestyle is a high-bandwidth way to delete a chart.
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The glitched times will always be the 'real' charts. If there was actually demand for parallel unglitchy charts, it would go in freestyle or maybe even a separate "game" with its own overalls, but either option would be splitting the competition and probably only viable with some method of automatically submitting times to both sets of rankings at once when applicable, and I don't see sufficient demand for glitchless charts to justify doing that.
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So, allow me to bring up another constantly put down idea that sounds more reasonable.
Why isn't Olympics on TSC?
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SONIC PINBALL PARTY
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PPA I believe the point you missed is that Olympics is actually submittable to TSC >_>
Surely we would all love to play a boring repetitive sonic pinball game for the next three years to get TEH HIGH SCORE!
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The glitched times will always be the 'real' charts. If there was actually demand for parallel unglitchy charts, it would go in freestyle or maybe even a separate "game" with its own overalls, but either option would be splitting the competition and probably only viable with some method of automatically submitting times to both sets of rankings at once when applicable, and I don't see sufficient demand for glitchless charts to justify doing that.
Dood, I've mentioned the idea of "glitchless" charts at least a year ago. (I was probably the first person to come up with the idea.) Though I despise Sonic R, the idea of glitchless charts for other games is one that I could see revitalizing competition on the whole, especially for 3d Sonic games.
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But if the point is to be competitive, and the non-glitch times are not competitive, then what's the point? It's like racing a top fuel dragster with a Hyundai Tiburon. Sure, you get to race, but you have zero chance of winning. Seriously, why are you so against anti-glitch competition?
'
That doesn't mean you disallow dragsters to make it fair for the hyundai owner.
Truer words hath never been spoken...
Also, I have a new GameFAQs Quote ^_^
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You still run into the same issues like having to figure out where to draw the line at what is and is not a glitch.
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You still run into the same issues like having to figure out where to draw the line at what is and is not a glitch.
There is a fairly good definition here, though...
until it gets broken again ^_^
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Here's a few clear cut definitions of glitchces.
1. Any and all cases of passing through a wall or ceiling
2. Permanent freezing of the clock.
3. Exploitation of obviously glitched game play mechanics. An example of this is in gems (06). We all know the power gauge is defective, not going down when it should. Of course this example becomes null and void the moment a patch that fixes the gauge occurs.
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Your definition falls apart with that last one. The last one isn't a glitch definition; "obviously glitched" becomes another arbitrary distinction that people disagree on. Knuckles's superglide is obviously glitched to me, while Alondite will argue it's just a game mechanic.
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Your definition falls apart with that last one. The last one isn't a glitch definition; "obviously glitched" becomes another arbitrary distinction that people disagree on. Knuckles's superglide is obviously glitched to me, while Alondite will argue it's just a game mechanic.
DLJ/ULJ/OLJ
SDJ
so on and so forth... they're "obviously glitched", IMNSHO, but I fully support their ability ^_^
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We don't need to fight over what we think glitches are. The people that run TSC know what a glitch is, and its up to them whether or not they want to make a separate chart or something for non-glitch times.
Personally, I don't care how it gets done. Whether there's a separate chart, or we have to keep track of the competition separately. I just want people to actually compete. I have no reason to play right now because nobody else will.
Even if you guys are fighting over this stuff, you could still play. Because regardless of what happens, we'll still be keeping track of non-glitch times in some form, so get out there and make some records!
If this helps give people a reason to at least play, here are my non-glitch records (from the site at least, I know I have better times on a few though):
Resort Island
GP 3lap: 44"20
GP flap: 12"90
TA 3lap: 44"60
TA flap: 14"40
Reverse 3lap: 44"96
Reverse flap: 14"63
Radical City
GP 3lap: 1'09"63 (Almost positive I have a better run here)
GP flap: 21"26 (I think I actually have sub 21 here)
TA 3lap: 1'16"20 (I think I have 1'14 here now lol)
TA flap: 24"96 (iirc I have 24"3x now)
Reverse 3lap: 58"30 (Think I have 57"xx)
Reverse flap: 19"16 (Prob beat this like every other RC time xD)
Regal Ruin
GP 3lap: 51"46
GP flap: 15"93 (May have beaten)
TA 3lap: 53"63
TA flap: 17"30 (Possibly beat)
Reverse 3lap: 1'02"06 (n00b time, never played this seriously)
Reverse flap: 19"86 (Same as above)
Reactive Factory
GP 3lap: 1'06"36
GP flap: 20"73
TA 3lap: 1'09"96
TA flap: 23"00 (Probably have better)
Reverse 3lap: 1'01"90
Reverse flap: 20"36 (I think my 20"13 on the site I went through the wall with, not sure)
Radiant Emerald
GP 3lap: 1'52"50
GP flap: 32"36 (Have 30"40 with Metal Knuckles but that requires flying through a wall..)
TA 3lap: 2'07"20 (Possibly beaten)
TA flap: 41"43
Reverse 3lap: 2'10"40 (I know for sure I have at least 2'08 here though)
Reverse flap: 42"66 (Probably have sub 42)
Now go beat these records! :)
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Well, I don't presently have Sonic CD right now, but if and when I ever get it back I'll probably do a bit of competing.
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Hey, remember when Sonic R was fun?
No.
^this
Let this shit die, lol.
Stefan makes good points, I don't see why you guys think there is nothing competitive in landing some of those shortcuts. When I came here, stuff on RC and RR was already allowed so I naturally assumed we were going for the fastest times possible. I don't care if anyone else is having fun, it's about pushing the game to the max. Due to the skill involved after hitting the shortcuts, I know a lot of the times can be dropped more. Some of them are not that hard to get so I don't know what is stopping people, lol. There are only a few places where you need some serious luck but there are ways to maximize your chance to fall through.
It's hard to play non-sc because of the tendency to just fall through walls.
Kmacc you scrub, you know I can only give you a fair fight. No one is stopping you guys from just improving your times without glitches so if it is so much fun then what is exactly stopping you from mastering the game to some degree. I need to look no farther than RE TA 3lap, anyone who knows what they are doing should get near 2'06-2'08 area, lol.
This game was poorly designed and as such, was easily exploited! >:]
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The glitched times will always be the 'real' charts. If there was actually demand for parallel unglitchy charts, it would go in freestyle or maybe even a separate "game" with its own overalls, but either option would be splitting the competition and probably only viable with some method of automatically submitting times to both sets of rankings at once when applicable, and I don't see sufficient demand for glitchless charts to justify doing that.
Dood, I've mentioned the idea of "glitchless" charts at least a year ago. (I was probably the first person to come up with the idea.) Though I despise Sonic R, the idea of glitchless charts for other games is one that I could see revitalizing competition on the whole, especially for 3d Sonic games.
By 'demand' I meant more than a couple people...