The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Competition Central => Topic started by: Muzozavr on September 21, 2009, 12:42:27 pm
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Either ban it or approve it and make TAS-like untouchable stats without actual TAS. Can you imagine all the player's skill put into a slo-mo version of the game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1atT6qrRLY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1atT6qrRLY)
This is a video of several different Lava Reef 1 glitches, but the last of them "The Megaglitch" resets the game, and creates a weird mode when some sprites flicker horribly, music plays stupidly fast, and the game plays stupidly slow, including the timer.
The video says "lags" but I am pretty sure it's more similar to a slow-motion thing, it looks EVEN. Not jerky, like lag, but even like slo-mo.
Seriously, this is... Wow.
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Good thing we don't have charts for Blue Knuckles then. <_<
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BUT you can also play as regular characters in the same mode. Watch again, he starts a normal game from a save on Hydrocity and it has the same effect.
HOWEVER (!) this is not without it's problems. According to ORKAL on Sonic Retro himself:
First, if you do the glitch wrong, the game will hard reset. Yeah.
Second, if you try to use level select and then enter Lava Reef again, the game will also hard reset.
This is the only time "non-hacked no debug" hard resets for S3K were ever witnessed, all others were soft resets.
Also, sprites may flicker as seen in the video.
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Wow, that is pretty fucking crazy. You must wonder how they coded that lava to make it so dangerous.
I've been thoroughly enjoying Orkal's glitch videos. The screenwrap glitches on the Sandopolis boss were awesome, too.
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Though there are still some other glitches and mess-ups after this, ORKAL updated the video annotations cause he figured out why the slow motion happens.
Basically, the game... is trying to run in PAL mode. With the country set to America. If you switch the country to European in the emulator, slo-mo and the graphics errors go away.
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Well, that sounds like it should be banned if it isn't. There is a rule that bans lag, right?
Or rather, does this fit?
"Gamesharks, similar cheat devices, "turbo" or "autofire" features of controllers, and ROM save states must not be used, nor any functions on the emulator, such as slowing down the speed of the game. Frankly it doesn't make for much competition."
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Apparently no it doesn't fit. I'm not sure but AFAIK the glitch works on the real hardware, as long as it's an american console.
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Well I'm sure there's bound to be something that disallows slowdown.
(Rules commitee, a little help here?)
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True, it is a glitch, but not all glitches are allowed. In my opinion, this should -not- be allowed. I'll admit it's a cool glitch, but you're slowing down the game by altering it in some way, shape, or form. It is stated that if you switch from NTSC to PAL in the emulator, everything will go back to normal, so in a sense you're playing on an altered version of the game, which is most certainly not allowed here.
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If you want to ban it, then please make a separate rule or something, because the current general clauses don't fit. The "altered version" does NOT apply: the glitch merely ACTIVATES the PAL mode on a NTSC system.
Or make a general clause that says "slowdown in general is not allowed, unless explicitly stated otherwise". Whatever, but PLEASE don't try to shoehorn it in the current definitions. It isn't logical.
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^I'd agree with Muzo there, something that can be done in-game doesn't count as modification. Still I'm against allowing it.
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^I'd agree with Muzo there, something that can be done in-game doesn't count as modification.
Performing a glitch that makes it run in PAL technically means it has been modified. Sure it may be in game, but definitions are definitions. >_>
Also i am also against this. It doesn't make the levels competetive this way since pretty much everyone wil get the same times.
EDIT: possibly restrict this to Freestyle perhaps?
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Performing a glitch that makes it run in PAL technically means it has been modified. Sure it may be in game, but definitions are definitions. >_>
"Modification" means the game itself has been changed, and NOTHING changes. A modification would be if a certain combination of events would cause the game to actually modify it's own code. (yes, that can happen in some shoddily programmed games)
Banning a glitch? Fine. Being illogical? For what reason if you can just make a new rule anyway?
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I don't see how getting a game that usually runs ntsc to try and run pal could, in any circumstance, not be considered a modification of code.
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"Modification" means the game itself has been changed, and NOTHING changes. A modification would be if a certain combination of events would cause the game to actually modify it's own code.
derp.
Then tell me, what exactly happened in the video? Did he not follow certain events to change the game? Would this not mean everyone else would have to follow these same events to change the game? And lastly, is the game's code not different? This is a form of modification, even if its completely in game.
EDIT: PS: I'm not trying 100% to get this banned, i merely just pointed out the fallacy in Paraxade's choice in words.
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I don't see how getting a game that usually runs ntsc to try and run pal could, in any circumstance, not be considered a modification of code.
That.
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Let me say this: it's a difference between changing the game itself or changing the STATE of the game. The game's code doesn't change -- every single byte in the ROM is the same. The state definitely changes -- this glitch messes up a truckload of variables in memory.
What about this clause:
"If the game crashes and resets itself, you must do a proper hard reset before playing".
P.S. Turns out hard reset is actually important. Soft resetting won't get rid of it.
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[09:59] <MrSparkle> this thread is funny, people throwing around words like technically this and technically that
[09:59] <MrSparkle> if this modifies the game, then goign to the next level does too
[10:01] <+Cruizer> then post your reply >_>
[10:01] <MrSparkle> it's hardly modification if the game is programmed to do that
[10:01] <MrSparkle> it did it, so it is programed as such
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Let me say this: it's a difference between changing the game itself or changing the STATE of the game. The game's code doesn't change -- every single byte in the ROM is the same. The state definitely changes -- this glitch messes up a truckload of variables in memory.
What about this clause:
"If the game crashes and resets itself, you must reset it properly before playing".
P.S. I'm not Paraxade. :D
I'm not good at understanding emulators...but don't code changes physically change the memory (or something) and not the ROM?
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Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.
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Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.
QFT.
EDIT:
but don't code changes physically change the memory
Stuff like Gameshark and such DO change the memory, but that's covered by the "cheat devices" clause.
ROM hacks on the other hand physically change the ROM itself.
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Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.
Okay that solves this debate.yeah i lost..so what But then these are my grounds for not allowing it:
Also i am also against this. It doesn't make the levels competetive this way since pretty much everyone wil get the same times.
EDIT: possibly restrict this to Freestyle perhaps?
Any arguments to that?
Also EDIT:
EDIT:
but don't code changes physically change the memory
Stuff like Gameshark and such DO change the memory, but that's covered by the "cheat devices" clause.
ROM hacks on the other hand physically change the ROM itself.
ROM hacks in TUSC kthx.
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I didn't say it shouldn't be banned. I said that if you want to ban it, it should be banned properly by making a new rule instead of coming up with illogical whatevers to shoehorn it under the old ones. The old rules are not enough for this glitch, just make a new one.
Freestyle, probably not. The purpose of S3K 1P freestyle is to show off the power of Super/Hyper forms, and it's more interesting to see them compared on the same game speed. Just ban it altogether, then. :P
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Modification or not, this should be banned kthxbai. Seriously, this is a glitch that forces the game to go slower than it is suppose to normally go, why shouldn't it be banned?
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If you want it banned that's fine. But the rules should be well written, and for that we should define what fits under the current rules and what requires new ones. This requires a new rule.
Otherwise, someone unfamiliar with this topic could later go, check the rules, test the glitch, and figure "ain't no rule" and abuse it. Since currently there ain't no rule, but there SHOULD be one.
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That would be a rather unwise decision on their part.
"If something seems iffy, you probably shouldn't be doing it."
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Am I the only one noticing that this glitch starts by becoming Super/Hyper to phase through the lava? You can't use Super/Hyper in any zone except Doomsday for TSC competition, so you can't even set up this glitch. Granted, he does show a bit where the lava doesn't load and he drops through that way, but he doesn't pull off the glitch in question that way, so there's a chance that the cause of the "Act 1-2" as he calls it is tied to the lava using RAM when it shouldn't be.
Somebody's going to tell me that the glitch can be carried over to a new zone, and that it should be legal as long as Super/Hyper isn't used in the zone for which the stat is submitted. But if that were the case, then it would be legal to use Super/Hyper in Lava Reef 2 and Death Egg 2 so long as you don't transform in the boss area, which is a separate Zone and Act in the ROM (Lava Reef 2 Boss shares a Zone ID with Hidden Palace, and Death Egg 2 Boss shares a Zone ID with Doomsday). Now somebody will argue that it's a matter of looking at the title cards and treating the zones that way, making those two boss fight examples irrelevant. This is the point I want to focus on.
I say that indeed, up to this point TSC has used the title cards as its basis for ranking: all Act 1s (or at least ones with title cards that say "Act 1") in Sonic 3 & Knuckles actually end in the ROM's Act 2. The transition from one act to another is seamless or covered by a cutscene. This is what makes Lava Reef 2 Boss, Death Egg 2 Boss, and this glitch different: in order to reach the level where you collect your stat, the screen fades to black, and the same zone is on the title card for the intended instances of this, but with the glitch you can access a different zone with a new title card. I'm ignoring the Act number in all of this, because shields can obviously be carried from Act 1 to Act 2. My thought on all of this is that if you can't pull it off in a single zone, it goes against all precedent of how every other stat on the site is obtained -- doing something in one zone has never affected another.
inb4 somebody comes up with an obscure example and tears me a new asshole over it
Since this thinking suggests that the glitch should be banned in all zones except Lava Reef, I would say to extend the ban to that zone as well for rule consistency.
I'm only a forum admin and not a site admin, so I can't set a rule in stone. However, I am on the Rules Committee. My current opinion is to disallow this, and if you want my vote in the committee to be swayed, you need to show me two things:
1. A method to execute the glitch without using Super/Hyper forms, or a convincing explanation as to why it is allowed in this instance so long as it isn't used in a run on which a stat is earned
2. A logical way to explain Zone and Act distinctions (as I did in the last paragraph) that fits the majority of the other charts on TSC and that allows this glitch
What you guys do from here is up to you.
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...have there even been any supporters of NOT banning this? It seems really obvious that this shouldn't stay. We seriously do not need a compbreaker on THIS game.
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tl;dr
My suggestion is this rule, for S3K at the very least: "Using an exploit in the game's programming to slow down the game invalidates your time." Kinda sloppy, but there needs to be a rule against this.
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Modification or not, this should be banned kthxbai. Seriously, this is a glitch that forces the game to go slower than it is suppose to normally go, why shouldn't it be banned?
Who do you see wanting to allow it?
Thorn, I would think that the rules only apply to what you do during your run. You're basically saying if someone found a way to do it without going super/hyper you would be fine with allowing it?
I'd propose a rule something along the lines of: Using an emulator setting or a glitch to make an NTSC game run in PAL mode is disallowed. Technically if you just say using a glitch to slow down the game is banned then accidentally making the game lag in Sonic 06 invalidates your run which is pretty much impossible to avoid, so.. (thinking of a general rule here, slowing down works if it's S3K specific)
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I looked at ORKAL's Hydrocity video and saw a questionable glitch in which he goes over the walls with knuckles, jumps, and skips almost the entire level. You'll know what I mean if you watch it.
But yeah, I dunno what to say about the LR glitch. It doesn't quite "modify" the game, since it just tries to run the PAL version. I still think that it's reasonable to ban it, though.
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I think what Thorn means is that even from the get-go this glitch doesn't work.
Also, this is probably a redundant question, but would the reverse of that rule (i.e. PAL running in NTSC) also be disallowed? Yes, I am aware that that would be a disadvantage.
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Just a simple rule: Slowing down the game purposely by any means is not allowed. Also Thorn, transforming into Super/Hyper sonic does not have anything to do with any TA you do after the glitch being executed, you can't use them in a TA but you can use them in a stage and then just play another stage without them. But I think it'll ruin the game if people could use it to do speedruns, I'm totally against this glitch being allowed here.
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To Thorn:
First of all, I'm not trying to make this glitch allowable. I'm just trying to make sure that no one tries to fit it under OLD rules because that would be illogical. And if there's no logic, you can't reliably follow the rules and being sure you didn't break any by accident.
"from one zone has never affected the other"
Do Sonic Adventure powerups count? Sure, everyone already has every single one of them, but strictly speaking, you get a powerup in one zone and carry the ability over to the next.
About Lava Reef 2 and Death Egg 2:
The boss areas take the TIME from the PREVIOUS "zone". (program-wise I mean)
If you use a Super/Hyper form in the non-boss area, it INVALIDATES said time, because without using the super/hyper form it'd be a different time.
In this case, you enter a different zone and the timer starts anew. That NEW time cannot be invalidated unless you turn super again. REGARDLESS of whether Super/Hyper forms were used in activating the glitch, the new time will be exactly the same. The only thing that directly influences that time is the slowdown advantage.
Super/Hyper clause doesn't work.
What seems really interesting is that everyone tries to ban it using the current rules, which don't work. Why not just make a new rule against that glitch? Wouldn't that be so much easier?
Brian_pso's rule seems good to me.
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honestly if it is even questionable whether something fits under a current rule it's better to make a new one. the rules are meant to be clear and easy to understand. it's not like the rules page is horribly difficult to update or has some sort of space limitation.
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honestly if it is even questionable whether something fits under a current rule it's better to make a new one. the rules are meant to be clear and easy to understand. it's not like the rules page is horribly difficult to update or has some sort of space limitation.
QFT. QFsomuchT.
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So here's what I don't get... after I posted saying "here's what somebody would have to make this glitch legal", everybody became defensive and said "what, nobody wants this to be legal, stfu". So why is this topic still growing? If there's no debate here, then stop trying to make new points, grab a site admin by the hair, pull hard, and say, "Ban this now." All I'm seeing is rewordings of the same rule, and given that there's only one known instance of this glitch happening, I'd think wording a rule against it would be pretty easy. We can deal with similar situations when the time arises.
General Rule:
"You may not play NTSC games using PAL settings, or vice versa."
Hey, that solves the Sonic Triple Trouble problem too! Wow, that was easy!
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Thorn, the so-called debate isn't really about allow/disallow, it's about how to ban it because for some reason several people are trying to fit this under current rules... also yeah I proposed a rule along those lines earlier so that would probably work well.
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Well, since the NTSC/PAL rule was going to be implemented anyway due to a circumstance in another game, it's already being banned by that rule even if you implemented yet another rule for it. Being doubly banned doesn't make it more illegal, so I don't see why we're trying to make a rule specifically for this glitch.
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For clarification? Does this slowdown really equal PAL, so much that mentioning PAL also mentions this glitch, and others potentially found in the future?
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Apparently it does. Changing the country fixes the slowdown/graphical errors.
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Well, since the NTSC/PAL rule was going to be implemented anyway due to a circumstance in another game, it's already being banned by that rule even if you implemented yet another rule for it. Being doubly banned doesn't make it more illegal, so I don't see why we're trying to make a rule specifically for this glitch.
There's nothing already in the rules that bans it, regardless of what is going to be added. Thus why it's being discussed. Derailing the thread into a "why are you guys talking about this" discussion isn't any better than what was being discussed before.
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Well, since the NTSC/PAL rule was going to be implemented anyway due to a circumstance in another game, it's already being banned by that rule even if you implemented yet another rule for it. Being doubly banned doesn't make it more illegal, so I don't see why we're trying to make a rule specifically for this glitch.
There's nothing already in the rules that bans it, regardless of what is going to be added. Thus why it's being discussed. Derailing the thread into a "why are you guys talking about this" discussion isn't any better than what was being discussed before.
Make a rule, enforce it, lock the topic. We're done here.
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Why is this getting banned whereas Sonic R's OOB glitch isn't? Both are glitches that heavily alter the way the games are played but still require skill to pull off and still allow for competition even if it's rape of the gameplay.
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There is actually far less room for competition, not to mention the Sonic R glitch is pulled off within the same run that you get your stat in, which is another thing that differentiates it from this glitch. I really don't understand how you can compare slowing the game down to a crawl to going out of bounds to skip laps in Sonic R, the R glitches are completely irrelevant and do not need to be discussed here.
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>:O!!!
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Apparently it does. Changing the country fixes the slowdown/graphical errors.
No, that means that it doesn't equal PAL. It means it's trying to run in PAL but can't because it's running on an NTSC system. The slowdown doesn't exist when playing the game in normal PAL. I suppose it's trying to run at PAL speed in NTSC, which means it's running much slower than either.
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Well, since the NTSC/PAL rule was going to be implemented anyway due to a circumstance in another game, it's already being banned by that rule even if you implemented yet another rule for it. Being doubly banned doesn't make it more illegal, so I don't see why we're trying to make a rule specifically for this glitch.
There's nothing already in the rules that bans it, regardless of what is going to be added. Thus why it's being discussed. Derailing the thread into a "why are you guys talking about this" discussion isn't any better than what was being discussed before.
Make a rule, enforce it, lock the topic. We're done here.
This. Proposing a second rule doesn't mean that it's going to get banned any more quickly, it just means that your new rule goes at the back of the queue of "things TSC has been putting off", and it's not getting special treatment to bump it to the front. Bugging the admins to put up a rule already on the table (like the PAL rule with Triple Trouble that can be extended to this) can be done in a couple of months, but making yet another rule could make it more like a year before it's added. This is why I bug somebody about the updated Constitution once or twice a week instead of just moving on to another site project.
SonicAD posted something about it not being PAL yet trying to run in PAL while I was typing this. Thus I propose a rewording to
General Rule:
NTSC games must run in NTSC mode and only on NTSC consoles, and likewise for PAL.
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so does the same thing happen if I stick the the PAL version of the game in my NTSC genesis?
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The problem is related to changing the region setting after the game has already initialized. Sonic 3 does have a region lock, but it's easily bypassed; once it's bypassed, it will correctly initialize settings based on console region. This glitch apparently overwrites those settings in RAM.