The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Rules Revisions => Topic started by: SpinDashMaster on May 15, 2012, 01:01:35 am
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Current Rule:
Rings Divisions
* The game's Time Attack mode is to be used for setting records.
Proposed Rule:
(Nothing) (Rings stats can be obtained in normal gameplay)
Post your approval or disapproval here and discuss.
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An awesome rule change, methinks. This wouldn't invalidate current charts (Right?), and opens the other two parts of the level up to RAing... and will probably get me back into the game before too long.
Kinda related, were Starting Time Zones times ever finalized? I thought they were but I didn't see a real word from a mod...
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It wouldn't invalidate current ring chart submissions, no, which is always nice with a new rule~
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Kinda related, were Starting Time Zones times ever finalized? I thought they were but I didn't see a real word from a mod...
I'll look into this. For now only submit stats with a starting point in the present.
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Aren't the ring layouts for each act shared between each timezone? Still, I up for more challenges.
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Sort of, yes. The location of the rings/monitors is constant across all four time zones, BUT, due to the level geography changing around, not all rings are accessible in every time zone.
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Okay, I'm definitely neutral in consideration for this rule. There is a slight problem, though. This will give emu players a giant advantage, since they can use save states. Console players(Sega CD and SGC) would have a hell of a difficult time with this because they'd have to start Act I and play through it EVERY time in order to start Act II in a different time. That is a major downside, in my opinion, seeing as I am a console player myself. However, the point of RA is entirely about getting as many rings as you can without getting rings twice(happens in SADX with the bells), so whatever happens to this rule is for the best, and I won't choose sides.
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Okay, I'm definitely neutral in consideration for this rule. There is a slight problem, though. This will give emu players a giant advantage, since they can use save states. Console players(Sega CD and SGC) would have a hell of a difficult time with this because they'd have to start Act I and play through it EVERY time in order to start Act II in a different time. That is a major downside, in my opinion, seeing as I am a console player myself. However, the point of RA is entirely about getting as many rings as you can without getting rings twice(happens in SADX with the bells), so whatever happens to this rule is for the best, and I won't choose sides.
Just thought I'd remind you of something:
* Gamesharks, similar cheat devices, "turbo" or "autofire" features of controllers, and ROM save states must not be used, nor any functions on the emulator, such as slowing down the speed of the game.
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* Gamesharks, similar cheat devices, "turbo" or "autofire" features of controllers, and ROM save states must not be used, nor any functions on the emulator, such as slowing down the speed of the game.
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Yeah, I know that, but wouldn't some people use it to start at the end of Act I, just before the sign post? Hm... I never knew that even that was violating the rules. I'll take note of that
Well, in both versions of Sonic CD, there is a way to access level select, which allows you to start any act in any time zone, which eliminates that problem (although this is far easier to access in CD 11 than CD 93 :P). Basically, RAing Sonic CD would begin with you choosing a favorable time zone to start in from level select, and warping as needed.
Naturally, I suspect you aren't very familiar with the game, so I can see why you said what you said.
Yes, you are correct that I am not familiar with the game, but I know about the accessibility of the level select. Though, from what I've been told by someone who is familiar with the game that time travelling from the level select screen sends you back to the title screen. Not sure about anything at this point, though...
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Making a save state between acts is perfectly fine as long as the state is from before the run starts. People do that in S3&K all the time to reduce tedium in starting act 2s with elemental shields.
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Kinda related, were Starting Time Zones times ever finalized? I thought they were but I didn't see a real word from a mod...
I'll look into this. For now only submit stats with a starting point in the present.
I meant for TA. Since time-traveling from level-select resets you, we were going to have all-times TA charts, I thought it was finalized and waiting for GS or someone to actually chart them, but I might've been wrong and was asking for a status update...
And yeah, there are emu advantages all over the place, we've never seen that as reason to disallow things before. And yes, save-stating before a run is legal, just not *during* a run. If I had to trigger various glitches or obtain shields in S3&K before each run... *shudder*
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Kinda related, were Starting Time Zones times ever finalized? I thought they were but I didn't see a real word from a mod...
I'll look into this. For now only submit stats with a starting point in the present.
Sorry but I have to point out in SCD11 we can start in any time zone we want when raing. I don't see why we can't do this in SCD93 O_o
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And yeah, there are emu advantages all over the place, we've never seen that as reason to disallow things before. And yes, save-stating before a run is legal, just not *during* a run. If I had to trigger various glitches or obtain shields in S3&K before each run... *shudder*
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I was more saying that it's an argument as to why people would prefer it not become a rule, because of being incredibly tedious. Of course doing that in other runs would be fine, but this one is a little too long for console users, ya know? That means that some may complain or use it as an argument. Like I said, since it's not as easily backed as other arguments, I'm neutral. I moreso just wanna point out that some people may have this argument.
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Sorry but I have to point out in SCD11 we can start in any time zone we want when raing. I don't see why we can't do this in SCD93 O_o
You do know that if you time travel at all in Sonic CD 93 from level select you get sent to the main menu right? It would be better to do what we were going to do from the beginning and that's split them all into charts since you can't time travel anyway.
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No because I haven't played much of the old version, just the new one. I was going to wait till I finished my 11 charts before I went back to playing the old version again.
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Just throwing in my thoughts, but if we had charts for starting in each time zone for Times/Score/Rings for each act, I would definitely play more original SCD~
Especially as it's way less hassle to compete on than the fucking remake.
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Just going to throw this in here: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=4784.msg51561#msg51561
From that topic, sounds like it is going to happen and many people want that (I also would play more SCD if this happened).
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I agree with RPG. That way, we can compromise the rule so that everyone is perfectly fine. I'm not sure if it's work for TA, but definitely RA(I'm slightly unclear on it, obviously due to laziness and unfamiliarity about the game itself). I DEMAND A RE-POLLING! DX< Lol
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More people have disapproved than approved? Wow.
I'm personally for this rule change!
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Daniel, it'd be more useful to add charts for Past, present, and future of each level for RA so that way you don't have to deal with level select, console players won't complain about emu players using save states before the RA runs, etc. It'd be the best possible outcome, in my opinion. We get the rule changed, AND no one will complain.
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Times and Score could also do with a chart for each act, except act 3's, beginning in Past, Present, and either Good Future or Bad Future too :P
The reason for this is Good Future and Bad Future are literally identical, the only difference between the two is BF has badniks and GF doesn't. Whether or not that makes it worth tracking both is up for debate I guess?
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Approve
Leave the starting time zone as a user option - It will add a bit more strategy into the mix, such as figuring out which time is optimal for the start of a run (similar to finding optimal starting points in S3&K, like right before a huge wallzip).
As for level select sending you back, I have a...half-hearted solution: TA the acts that come prior to the ones you wish to RA? I don't know how that will go over, but that's what I usually do.
Yeah, emus have it made for setting up levels. Doesn't CD 2011 have a save feature that allows you to reset from the exact act you were on?
Overall, I don't think these issues should prevent the rule change.
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It does, but that doesn't make it particularly useful; it autosaves at the end of every level.
oh and you only have 4 save slots, even on the PC version.
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It does, but that doesn't make it particularly useful; it autosaves at the end of every level.
oh and you only have 4 save slots, even on the PC version.
Aren't they actually files, though? Couldn't you just set them to read-only and make it so only the one you currently want to play is loaded by the game by re-naming them so it can't see them?
I don't know, never played the PC version...
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I don't know, but it's possible, however tedious, that you could get a savefile for each act and timezone, and hot swap them around as needed. You'd still have to put up with the God awful timer bug though.
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In my opinion, Time Attack can still be used for Times, Scores and Rings for Present when playing Act 1 and 2 of stages and Bad Future for Act 3 of stages and just use Level Select for everything else.
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^That.
And if Level Select causes problems because it boots you back out to the main menu when you time travel, easy solution: no time travelling.
So the charts would end up as:
Times/Rings/Score
PP1 - Past
PP1 - Present
PP1 - Bad Future
PP1 - Good Future
so on and so forth.
Also just to reemphasise, I, and probably a bunch of others too, would compete on the original SCD again if the charts were expanded.
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Actually, I don't know if TA or SA should also be put into different Time Zones, or at least as of yet. I think they shouls stay the way they are, but bertin and RPG have the right idea, essentially, and I think people will like that
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Also just to reemphasise, I, and probably a bunch of others too, would compete on the original SCD again if the charts were expanded.
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If we are updating the rules/charts to allow for RAing in each time zone, there is no reason to not also expand this to Times and Score. The level layout changes enough each time that it is sufficiently different.
Besides, I was under the impression that this was an idea (IE each time zone for T/R/S) that was decided upon long ago, yet not implemented yet.
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I just only disagree. I like the idea, but I don't. I think it should only be for RA, but there's nothing really against doing it for all charts. It's totally opinionated at this point, since there's no downside, and there really isn't an upside either
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I understand and respect the ideas you have put forth and I am willing to do the split charts concept.
Give me time, because I want to be sure I modify the charts correctly without ruining a shitton of precious data.
Lastly, I've been informed by my peers that there's been poll rigging going on. Allow me to take initiative in PUTTING MY FOOT DOWN.
1) Whichever among you did it, you're stupid for rigging the poll. Its purpose is merely for getting a quick general populus-wide response without reading the whole thread. Polls NEVER determine the outcome of a ruling.
2) Among all the admins here, I am the most willing to listen. If you have something that you strongly disagree with, POST IT OR PM ME. I am always open-minded to the users' ideas.
3) The irony is despite the poll's results, I was willing to change to the split charts concepts. Rigging the poll got you no profit.
4) If I see poll rigging happening again, you can expect your duplicate accounts (as well as your original) to be deleted.
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My opinion on this is that Times should have charts for all time periods, but Rings and Scores would better stay "general". That is, you start the Zone in the present and you can time travel as much as the time posts allow you, to take advantage of other time periods. I prefer having more room for exploration in non-linear categories. I wouldn't mind taking out the "starting at present" part.
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Who would be so stupid to create accounts -just- to vote? It's stupid.
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More thoughts:
TA could easily be either fastest normal run (Allowing Time Travel), fastest TA only (current), or fastest per starting time period... I do like the starting-time-period version because it wouldn't invalidate current TA status (They'd count for "Present"), and it'd open up competition in the other 2/3 of the game.
For rings, All-area normal-game RA gets the highest ring counts, so that's what we should use. By-time-zone could be used, but it seems arbitrarily restrictive without providing much more in the way of challenge. If console players don't like it, they have a computer to play with, because they can jump on TSC, so it's a choice to not compete, and that's not something we reflect in our charts (That people are unwilling to play X or Y... otherwise we wouldn't have S06 charts >__>).
Scores... For scores, each time period could have a different score, and it could be higher/lower than the full-run score (I don't think are enough rings to offset the time bonus in any level, feel free to correct me). I think allowing all start points (from L Select and/or TA) and normal game play as score routes and only having a single score slot would probably be best, similar to KC's "Use whatever time you want" ruling. Gives highest scores and lets each player do what's best/easiest for them, or what's best for score. I don't think RA and SA are the same for many levels, so I think whichever start gets you to the end the fastest and thus allows for more time to combo/ring/etc would wind up being the biggest, but I'd love to be wrong.
tl;dr: This is roughly what I want:
Times:
PP1 Past
PP1 Present
PP1 BFuture
PP1 GFuture
Rings:
PP1 (allows normal gameplay, ta, or different start, whichever is best)
Scores:
PP1 (allows normal gameplay, ta, or different start, whichever is best)
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I totally agree with what Cruizer said. Anyway, back on topic...
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Just to clarify: my vision of the charts would be exactly the same as Aitamen's, just merging both futures for Times.
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There are quite a few levels where ring bonus can trump time bonus
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Isn't it true that GF and BF have nothing different except the presence/lack of robots?
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In PP3 near the boss area there is a slight change to the layout, which is why I use BF when taing it. It's just a straight run to the boss area in BF where as in GF it's not. Not sure about the other levels.
EDIT: CC3 has less bouncy balls in the pinball area in GF than in BF but then there is the short cut over the top >_>. Another slight layout change to the first slope between QQ3 BF and GF. So far I think that's it.
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Isn't it true that GF and BF have nothing different except the presence/lack of robots?
As FF said, that's not fully right... but then there's the fact that sometimes enemies are in the way, and other times they're useful thanks to the bounce physics in this game.
There are quite a few levels where ring bonus can trump time bonus
Really? Off the top of my head, I was thinking that almost every level has a 255+Ring Box soft limit for 25500 points, and didn't see many combos in comparison, no perfect bonus (Which is was sealed it for S2), etc. I was also citing that the scores chart for TT2 is much lower that every other level except bosses. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just curious as to where this is... Still, I think a single chart might be better overall even it it weren't the case...
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Im going off of the fact that for Rings and Score you just listed the level and no specific time zone, so surely you can time travel and get enough rings to outweigh the time limit?
As an addendum, if you want 4 time zone charts for times, then surely that should also apply to rings and scores, because not being consistent with a chart we're updating to better reflect the rules for the updated chart is a bit dumb. Or just have one chart and allow any time zone for times, too.