Sonic Generations Charts Discussion


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Offline Thorn

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Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« on: November 03, 2011, 10:04:06 AM »
In the interest of getting charts created sooner rather than later, I am posing a few questions about the rules and brackets for Generations competition (not the 3DS version yet, of course).
  • Will we mimic the leaderboards and disallow skills, will we allow all or most skills, or will we have charts for both methods?
  • Will we track 30 Second Trials, which are simply small portions of the full-level time attacks?
  • If we allow skills, will we make separate charts for using the skill earned for beating the game? (You can say what it is in your answer, but since this post is on the main page, I'm avoiding spoilers in the off chance that somebody doesn't know about it.)
  • To what extent will we track challenges (i.e. will we just track times, or also rings when applicable)?
If you can think of anything else that could be up for debate, ask about it.
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Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 03:28:06 AM »
imo, allow skills, they're fun :P I can't think of any skills off the top of my head that would need to be disallowed (except maybe Time Brake? I haven't actually tried that one). As for 30-second trials, I don't really see the point. It's the first 30 seconds of a TA. Also, disagree with separate charts for Super Sonic, since he pretty much sucks.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Offline flying fox

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 09:57:50 AM »
I'm pretty sure there's a skill called last chance where you will restart with 10 rings. If I'm right then surely that should be disallowed for the rings division imo.

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 10:40:29 AM »
Why? Pausing and retrying a stage isn't exactly hard.

Offline flying fox

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 10:43:05 AM »
No but it seems really dumb to do that just for another 10 rings and I discussed it with SonicAD on IRC and I'm pretty sure he agreed with me >_>

Offline Gpro

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Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 10:51:09 AM »
I agree with flying fox on this one. It's definitely pretty stupid to just get another 10 rings added to your total. If you think about it, it's somewhat like the SADX rule, starting a level w/rings(carried over from Adventure Mode) isn't allowed in RA in the charts, so I think it ought to be applied here, and, as I said before, it is kind of pointless to easily start with 10 rings, especially if it must be unlocked to use it. That is a little... averting, in my opinion. It would piss me off, too, if I just started the game AND want to compete in it.

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2011, 06:34:57 PM »
If you think about it, it's somewhat like the SADX rule, starting a level w/rings(carried over from Adventure Mode) isn't allowed in RA in the charts,

No, it really isn't. 1. You're getting the rings in an entirely different level, and 2. That gives an infinite source.

It would piss me off, too, if I just started the game AND want to compete in it.

Okay, then. Let's just ban all skills. Actually, better yet, let's only have a chart for Green Hill Classic, as that's the only thing you can play when you first start the game.

Offline Antronach

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2011, 08:57:02 PM »
Calm down, calm down (jeez...)

Skills don't really seem to be that big of a deal (except for Last Chance on RA's) since most of them have to do with helping the player out a little when they mess up (except for the one that allows you to boost earlier).

Also, could one submit to Sonic 1 divisions with the in-game version? I noticed that it had a higher framerate than usual, but I don't compete on that game so I wouldn't know how it'll affect stuff.
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Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2011, 11:19:24 PM »
... the 10 rings on restart skill is not a big deal. Just pause and restart. There's no reason to disallow it.

The SADX rule is completely irrelevant for the reasons Miles said.

Quote
It would piss me off, too, if I just started the game AND want to compete in it.

Well then, you'd hate SSR and SBK.

edit: also, it's weird you guys think this skill is a big deal but Ring Time isn't.

btw, the skill we're talking about is Safety Net, not Last Chance. Last Chance gives you an extra life if you game over.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 11:45:58 PM by Umbreon »

Offline Aitamen

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Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2011, 05:33:25 AM »
I can't imagine that something that'd improve scores but is annoying would be disallowed.  I'm led to think about S3&K RAs wherein you need to have beaten the level before and left any flag boxes up so you can get those rings for the Act 2 RA: Still legal on all charts, small flat bonus required for ring scores, requires set-up.  Side note of Holy Shit That's Annoying, especially for anyone who wants to compete in S3&K on console.  Just sayin'.

It's limited, it doesn't reduce the competitiveness of the stat, it increases maximum scores.  It should certainly be allowed.

Offline AniMeowzerz

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2011, 05:43:26 AM »
In regards to whether or not we should allow skills, I think we should given 1 reason: Doppleganger challenges are just the full act with the restriction of not having any skills. So if we restricted it for acts then they would be equally comparable which is... kinda pointless
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Offline SirJaden

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2011, 06:32:03 AM »
Yeah, most skills are pretty fun imo and add a whole new way for speedrunning. I wouldn't mind having separate charts. I agree with most of what Paraxade said except I would like Super Sonic even if he's useless :P and Time Brake is really useless from what I see, slow down everything including the timer itself <_< Last chance is pointless as well.

As for the Doppleganger challenges, you can look into not considering them since it's pretty much a copy of the main stage, as someone said.

EDIT: Fixed typo about Time Brake.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 11:53:52 AM by SirJaden »

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2011, 06:51:59 AM »
Time Brake slows down the timer too.

Offline JBertolli

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2011, 10:14:37 AM »
As for the Doppleganger challenges, you can look into not considering them since it's pretty much a copy of the main stage, as someone said.

Or add the Doppelganger challenges as no skill charts and allow skills for main acts? It seems convenient, anyway.

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2011, 10:48:48 AM »
The problem with that is if I'm gonna bother doing a run with no skills, I'd wanna have it on the leaderboards, so I'd wanna do it in ranking attack. I dunno. Maybe we should just have "no skills" charts and put in the rules that you're allowed to submit stats from the doppelganger challenges in the no skills charts.

Offline flying fox

Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2011, 11:16:45 AM »
    • To what extent will we track challenges (i.e. will we just track times, or also rings when applicable)?

    I was told by AD when I asked him were we to track rings in challenges he said to assume so as to keep track of strats. Not to mention we do track rings in SU even though it doesn't at the level select or whatever you call it. [/list]

    Offline SirJaden

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #16 on: November 05, 2011, 11:53:13 AM »
    Time Brake slows down the timer too.

    Oops! typo on my part, fixed <_< wouldn't make sense to call it useless if it doesn't affect the timer though lol and yeah, the no skills chart sounds like a good idea.

    Offline Taillow

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #17 on: November 05, 2011, 01:16:41 PM »
    I thought RAing was in essence gathering all the rings naturally lying around in a stage, not gathering all the rings in a stage + an extra 10 that the game just gives you.  But I can't think of an identical situation that's happened before (Especially since SatSR doesn't have ring charts)

    Also I'm pretty sure there's some skills that would make at least a slight difference.  Aren't there speedup skills?  Endless boost, faster wall jumping, elemental shields, etc.
    « Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 01:23:22 PM by Taillow »
    Hi

    Offline Parax

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #18 on: November 05, 2011, 01:27:35 PM »
    i dunno. on the one hand, i still think there's no reason to disallow the 10 ring restart thing, and don't get why it's generating so much discussion... on the other hand, there's no reason to disallow ring time either, and I REAAAALLY don't want to do RAs with ring time. So you guys do what you want.

    Offline Aitamen

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #19 on: November 05, 2011, 02:16:40 PM »
    I thought RAing was in essence gathering all the rings naturally lying around in a stage, not gathering all the rings in a stage + an extra 10 that the game just gives you.  But I can't think of an identical situation that's happened before (Especially since SatSR doesn't have ring charts)

    Also I'm pretty sure there's some skills that would make at least a slight difference.  Aren't there speedup skills?  Endless boost, faster wall jumping, elemental shields, etc.

    Another thing: it's like in the GG game where having a ring count as a multiple of 10 nets you extra rings via signpost. Not directly, but that's what it made me think of.

    Nothing identical though, no, not so far as I'm aware.  That's why it's causing more talk: new concept, new rule for the ages.

    Offline Ajavalo

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #20 on: November 05, 2011, 06:08:00 PM »
    I agree with tracking both "skill" and "no skills" separately, but if that ends up being impossible, skills should be allowed because they add a lot of variety. About the famous "MASSIVE SPOILER!!!11!" thing, let's give him a place: even if he sucks at gameplay, he's still Super Sonic.

    About tracking side missions: everything (time, score and rings) that's suitable for competition should be there except when the layout is the same as the regular level.

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #21 on: November 05, 2011, 10:34:23 PM »
    I say, have seperate charts for skills, allow SS, disalow the 10 rings skill for ring runs, because, its like, If you allow it, then everyone will do it, making it a mandatory item for ring runs, so its just an extra thing you have to do before each ring run, and, one less item you can use.

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #22 on: November 05, 2011, 11:30:58 PM »
    You could use the same logic for banning Speed Up in TAs. >_>

    Offline Parax

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 12:11:57 AM »
    but you could also use the same logic to ban Ring Time...!

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 12:25:20 AM »
    Yeah, Ring Time sucks. :( I just see absolutely no reason why it and Safety Net should be banned.

    Offline Bilan

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 09:02:34 PM »
    I got bored of reading but Time Break is fucking OP as hell.
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    Offline Parax

    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 04:59:40 AM »
    i don't think time brake is much of a big deal honestly. in most cases classic has much much more useful skills than time brake (like the elemental shields). time brake will make it easier to optimize, sure, but at the cost of being able to use other skills that can actually save a lot of time, plus whoever decides to use it is gonna find competing to be so tedious. <_<

    lightning shield saves like 20 seconds in crisis city for example.

    so i dunno. it's definitely a skill that should've had limited uses, so i'm not opposed to banning it, but i'm not opposed to leaving it unbanned either as using it means you'll be at a disadvantage. either's fine with me.

    what else needs to be determined before we can get these charts up? I wanna compete :P

    edit: also... has anyone shown that there is even one level that can be done faster with super sonic than without? classic SS's only advantage is the very slightly higher jump, which lightning shield makes moot... modern SS might be more interesting, but I still doubt he's worth it. if it turns out it's faster not to go SS in most levels then it's gonna be stupid. especially if you can go faster than SS without skills (as then SS charts would be "turn on super sonic then TA the level without ever actually using him").
    « Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 12:35:09 PM by Umbreon »

    Offline Bilan

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 08:58:06 AM »
    I tested out SS a bit in both, in Classic it didn't seem to make too much difference. Modern it didn't really seem to make too much difference either, you could probably get better skills instead of just blowing it all on that.
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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #28 on: November 09, 2011, 08:42:49 PM »
    I say have 1 "No Super Sonic" and 1 "Super Sonic" and leave it at that, other Skills are fine since you can custom-combind.

    Offline Bilan

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    Re: Sonic Generations Charts Discussion
    « Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 08:52:18 PM »
    Super Sonic is useless anyway so there's no real point.
    Did you not think I had a mind?

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