S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks


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Offline GerbilSoft

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S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« on: November 23, 2008, 09:47:37 PM »
In Lava Reef 1, you can't destroy a badnik which came from the same origin as a badnik you already destroyed.

Suggested by SpinDashMaster, added 2008/11/23.

Offline Magnezone

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 02:27:15 PM »
highly old, discussed, and in dozens and dozens of other levels, the most infamous one being hilltop zone. it was never banned because there is no possibility of an infinite score like most score situations in secret rings due to the advent of "time over"; it is merely something that is long and tedious to do if you want the best record, which in this day and age's competition is pretty standard.

Offline Selphos

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 03:05:50 PM »
*cough* Adv2 scalping
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 06:56:14 PM »
highly old, discussed, and in dozens and dozens of other levels, the most infamous one being hilltop zone. it was never banned because there is no possibility of an infinite score like most score situations in secret rings due to the advent of "time over"; it is merely something that is long and tedious to do if you want the best record, which in this day and age's competition is pretty standard.
Sorry, but please name a few more levels.  The Hill Top one requires breaking rocks repeatedly, and require Sonic to move far enough away and return.  I have it from good authority (SDM here: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=3875.0 - yay for circular hyperlinks) that the Lava Reef badniks can be combo'd in a single spindash, which IIRC is similar to the birds in Launch Base, where the same rule already exists.
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Offline FuzZerd

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 10:51:54 PM »
what I think makes this questionable and launch base obvious is you actually have to move for LR1, you can just spin in place and let the birds come to you in LB.

Offline Magnezone

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 05:15:56 PM »
Alright. I checked this out myself, and I can safely say that this is nothing like the LB birds. All you have to do there is hold down for seven-eight minutes. In this case you have to consistently go back and forth. Same as Hill Top, Mushroom Hill, Atomic Destroyer, every SAdv Score, and every SSR mission with a timer and a rail. The only thing that makes LR stick out is that the score is like WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HIGH and somehow that makes for a reason as to why we should ban it. It's not infinite, and it takes more strategy to get the highest score than SAdv2 scores. I say it should be legal.

Also, on a similar note, I searched Act 2 for a similar spot and only Knuckles has a spot where these large combos are possible.


Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 05:41:14 PM »
I vote unban for reasons sited by SkyL... mostly because I thought it was the "bounce off an enemy and go so high it respawns, then fall down on it again for inf combo" thing that was found a few years back...

Offline Thorn

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2010, 07:05:56 PM »
Admin bump.

The general tone of this topic seems to be that they want this rule removed. This bump is because a similar issue cropped up in Mushroom Hill that led us to ban it across the game as a whole, and the Rules Committee has been largely unresponsive about it. So if you have a particular stance on this ruling across all of S3&K (Launch Base, Mushroom Hill, Lava Reef), speak now or forever hold you peace. I'll check back when the topic dies down and bug SonicAD about making the majority ruling the norm.

Note that it's highly likely that this topic will be used as precedent in future debates about spam scoring. If your opinion reaches over to Hill Top rock spamming, Sonic Advance 2 mid-air trick action spamming, or anything similar, make your case.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2010, 07:12:38 PM »
The goal of the site, as I understand it, is that we're aiming for the highest competitive stats.  We Outlaw'd Gamma's Hot Shelter because it went infinite, we outlawed Flag Bouncing because it's infinite, we outlaw'd botnik sitting on those turrets spawning hundreds of thousands of points because it's infinite.

If there's a timer, the spam isn't infinite, unless it maxes the counter.  Rather, timing and speed are still valued (both how fast you can pull off the spam and how much time you need to get to the end afterwards).

This also goes to S2 (HT, the rock breaking), to SAdva2 trick bonuses, and anywhere else... ban it if it goes infinite or maxes the counter, leave it alone if it's simply abuse of a mechanic.

Yes, I realize that LB would explode, and I don't care, heh

Offline Magnezone

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2010, 07:26:27 PM »
I'm pretty much in line with Aitamen's response. It's silly to ban techniques that push clearly defined boundaries (the Time Over aspect of the old games) to the limit. It really doesn't matter how big the number gets as long as there's a limit imposed on the score. Even in LB, if you sit there for the 8 minutes of spindashing at the beginning, you're still not going to get an infinitely large score or get anywhere close to maximizing the score value.

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2010, 09:36:17 PM »
If it were difficult and not simply tedious, I wouldn't mind it. But it doesn't sound to be very difficult <__<
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2010, 10:12:27 PM »
If it were difficult and not simply tedious, I wouldn't mind it. But it doesn't sound to be very difficult <__<

is :08 difficult?  how about the magic 67 in SC?  What about :13-:14 GH2?

Or hell, what about waiting for the perfect first dig that nets a mag-shield in a hunting level, for m2's for SA2(B)?  I'm sure THAT'S real skill intensive! YEAH!

Just because half of something is boring or tedious doesn't mean it's removed from the chart.  If it has value in a competitive sense, it deserves to be here, in my mind.  I do not speak for everyone, I'm aware, but we are a competitive site, after all.

Offline Luxray

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2010, 02:16:45 AM »
If this time limited scalping isn't allowed, then Marble 2 has to be looked at for the respawining breakaway blocks.

I'm for removing it.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2010, 02:45:25 AM »
The levels that I know of that are effected are:
S1
M2 (Blocks)

S2
HT (rocks)

S3&K
MH: gophers
LB: alarm bird things
LR: respawning roll combo

everything in SAdva2

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2010, 08:55:22 AM »
is :08 difficult?  how about the magic 67 in SC?  What about :13-:14 GH2?

Or hell, what about waiting for the perfect first dig that nets a mag-shield in a hunting level, for m2's for SA2(B)?  I'm sure THAT'S real skill intensive! YEAH!

Just because half of something is boring or tedious doesn't mean it's removed from the chart.  If it has value in a competitive sense, it deserves to be here, in my mind.  I do not speak for everyone, I'm aware, but we are a competitive site, after all.
yo dawg, Thorn wanted us to express our feelings on the subject. I'm seriously doubting that you're going to convince me otherwise, but you can continue if you wish.
Yes, HP-K 0:08 does take skill. That's why some people have it and some don't. Same with GH2. I don't really care for the Sky Chase Rings ranking, it seems pretty arbitrary to me. I don't care about SA2(B) or 3D Sonic in general, so whatever about that one. XD

So I suppose that it would indeed take skill to speed to the roll combo area, roll combo for as long as possible, and then finish quickly. So whatever. My opinion still stays as it was previously.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2010, 01:12:52 PM »
I don't play 3D sonic, really, but I still have respect for the amount of time poured into getting a low time in those runs.  The question isn't "would you enjoy doing it", but rather, "if we allow this, does it remain competitive" and "would this idea be beneficial to the site, both in theme as a precedent for future rulings, and for Sitewide/champion rankings"

I don't think this argument goes the route of "rings and scores are boring, we should just have times charts!"...

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2010, 05:21:29 PM »
....okay...?
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Offline Zeupar

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »
In my opinion we should delete all the charts that Aitamen listed. While I agree that having a record over 400K points for a certain stage is awesome to impress newbies, getting decent scores on charts like that involve boring strategies that nobody sane would enjoy. I think that deleting them is a better idea than imposing a random cap which in some cases you couldn't tell if you violated.

But when it comes to deleting charts, TSC tends to be pretty conservative so I don't think people will like this idea. If I have to choose between imposing a random cap and allowing the scalp, I pick the latter.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2010, 07:10:35 PM »
I don't think a cap was ever mentioned: it's either legalize or ban and remove the charts (freestyle?) at this point.

and if your only reason to ban it is "we don't enjoy it", I have a ton of things I, and everyone else, have done that we didn't like that I'm sure we'd like to not have had to do.

Offline Zeupar

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2010, 08:59:25 PM »
I don't think a cap was ever mentioned

It was mentioned recently. In a topic posted on a board that you can't access.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2010, 09:01:45 PM »
so I'm missing half the argument?  that kinda sucks >_>

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2010, 11:44:37 PM »
why aren't i in this rules committee? i should be makin the rules
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2010, 12:18:53 AM »
Quote
getting decent scores on charts like that involve boring strategies that nobody sane would enjoy
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_the_hedgehog

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2010, 04:52:18 PM »
So it's been a week without any updates in this topic, and the consensus seems to be to allow point spam anywhere that a time constraint prevents infinite scores. I'm bugging SonicAD about making this the rule across all games tomorrow.

If you have thoughts to the contrary, speak now or forever hold your peace.
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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2010, 09:20:23 PM »
I'm changing the rules right now in line with the responses in the topic. Score spam is now allowed in most any game provided that it's limited by time; exceptions to the rule will be made as problems are discovered.
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Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2010, 01:14:47 PM »
revision is fucking stupid
Hooray, now I get to spindash for about 8.5 minutes 3 times. I would much rather simply soft-ban it on LB1, meaning you can do it but everyone will hate you and not respect your stat at all. Like I'm feeling @ Aitamen right now. Cuz it's lame.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 05:07:23 PM by Strong Bad »
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2010, 04:45:15 PM »
revision is fucking stupid
Hooray, now I get to spindash for about 8.5 minutes 3 times. I would much rather simply soft-ban it on LB2, meaning you can do it but everyone will hate you and not respect your stat at all. Like I'm feeling @ Aitamen right now. Cuz it's lame.

first off, LB1**

If you really hate me because I got a stat that requires a little patience, you have bigger problems...  you think it's any less boring to SD for eight minutes than it is to retry every 8 seconds on average for EH?  or for it to work in something else?

Then again, purists will be purists.

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2010, 05:14:29 PM »
I was simply exaggerating. No, I don't hate you. I do not respect the score you obtained on LB1-STK, however.

The reason you would need to retry on EH is because of a player mistake. The boring part isn't a factor, either, or else all of the 3-D games would be banned too, amirite? The point is that it's not skillful. You sit there, spindash for 9 minutes (faster if you use an emulator and frame skip EDIT: apparently that's just wayy too good and unfair to those who don't use emulators, so nvm), and then use the zip for Sonic and Knuckles. For Tails, you do have to do some actual TAing, but it's still stupidness. Considering I'm ranked 3rd for Sonic, 2nd for Tails, and 2nd for Knuckles in Times, this really isn't a problem for me to do. In fact, I've gotten 2334200 with Knuckles and 2344200 with Sonic (he's faster against the boss with a higher jump & his insta-shield attack). I haven't even tried with Tails yet, but I'm pretty sure I can get over 2 million EDIT: 2043700 with Tails. 96 rings. I don't want to submit these stats because it's stupid and if competition really ends up being a matter of who can spindash for the longest while still finishing the level, then what kind of competition site is this?
Yes, you legitimately obtain that score in-game, but we don't let people hit the signpost infinitely, or finish at 9:59, do we? No, we don't. Why is this so special of a case?
I suppose I'm being all scrubby or something, but this is my view. Normally I really don't care about what's used (zips, the time-stop and various zips required for LB2R-T, etc.) to obtain stats, but this crosses the line in my opinion.

And I'm not going to "hold my peace" on this because I didn't beforehand, either.

EDIT: Btw, LB2 was a typo since I was typing on my iPod <__<
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 06:00:05 PM by Strong Bad »
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2010, 07:54:32 PM »
well, there's still some edge you're seeing, but not admitting to: it's still a contest of who can get to the end the fastest, and who has the most courage.

If you don't sub your superior stats, then you're saying I'm better than you, OF YOUR OWN CHOOSING.

be a moron all you want, but don't bitch because my scores are higher.

Offline Strong Bad

Re: S&K: Lava Reef 1 - Respawning Badniks
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2010, 07:58:26 PM »
I don't really care if your scores are higher than mine. In fact, I don't care if 20 people's scores are higher than mine on that level due to spam. I'm still better than you and everyone else (sans Smizzla) at the entirety of S3. If I'm a moron, what does that make you?
hint: flaming doesn't help in a debate.

Yes, it's a contest of who can end the fastest. Interestingly, enough we track that one too! Redundant charts ftw!

If Thorn/the rest of the Rules Committee are just going to say "fuck you" to my post and previous posts in this topic, then I guess I'll just submit my scores. A post confirming this inference would be nice.
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