S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH


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Offline Muzozavr

S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« on: September 21, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »
Either ban it or approve it and make TAS-like untouchable stats without actual TAS. Can you imagine all the player's skill put into a slo-mo version of the game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1atT6qrRLY

This is a video of several different Lava Reef 1 glitches, but the last of them "The Megaglitch" resets the game, and creates a weird mode when some sprites flicker horribly, music plays stupidly fast, and the game plays stupidly slow, including the timer.

The video says "lags" but I am pretty sure it's more similar to a slow-motion thing, it looks EVEN. Not jerky, like lag, but even like slo-mo.

Seriously, this is... Wow.
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 01:31:16 PM »
Good thing we don't have charts for Blue Knuckles then.  <_<
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 01:36:52 PM »
BUT you can also play as regular characters in the same mode. Watch again, he starts a normal game from a save on Hydrocity and it has the same effect.

HOWEVER (!) this is not without it's problems. According to ORKAL on Sonic Retro himself:

First, if you do the glitch wrong, the game will hard reset. Yeah.
Second, if you try to use level select and then enter Lava Reef again, the game will also hard reset.

This is the only time "non-hacked no debug" hard resets for S3K were ever witnessed, all others were soft resets.

Also, sprites may flicker as seen in the video.
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Offline Crowbar

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 08:17:50 PM »
Wow, that is pretty fucking crazy. You must wonder how they coded that lava to make it so dangerous.

I've been thoroughly enjoying Orkal's glitch videos. The screenwrap glitches on the Sandopolis boss were awesome, too.

Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 12:54:11 AM »
Though there are still some other glitches and mess-ups after this, ORKAL updated the video annotations cause he figured out why the slow motion happens.

Basically, the game... is trying to run in PAL mode. With the country set to America. If you switch the country to European in the emulator, slo-mo and the graphics errors go away.
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Offline Taillow

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2009, 12:59:53 AM »
Well, that sounds like it should be banned if it isn't.  There is a rule that bans lag, right?

Or rather, does this fit?

"Gamesharks, similar cheat devices, "turbo" or "autofire" features of controllers, and ROM save states must not be used, nor any functions on the emulator, such as slowing down the speed of the game. Frankly it doesn't make for much competition."
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2009, 05:46:00 AM »
Apparently no it doesn't fit. I'm not sure but AFAIK the glitch works on the real hardware, as long as it's an american console.
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Offline Taillow

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2009, 05:47:54 AM »
Well I'm sure there's bound to be something that disallows slowdown.

(Rules commitee, a little help here?)
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2009, 06:05:27 AM »
True, it is a glitch, but not all glitches are allowed.  In my opinion, this should -not- be allowed.  I'll admit it's a cool glitch, but you're slowing down the game by altering it in some way, shape, or form.  It is stated that if you switch from NTSC to PAL in the emulator, everything will go back to normal, so in a sense you're playing on an altered version of the game, which is most certainly not allowed here.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 06:12:48 AM by DarkspinesSonic »
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2009, 09:02:40 AM »
If you want to ban it, then please make a separate rule or something, because the current general clauses don't fit. The "altered version" does NOT apply: the glitch merely ACTIVATES the PAL mode on a NTSC system.

Or make a general clause that says "slowdown in general is not allowed, unless explicitly stated otherwise". Whatever, but PLEASE don't try to shoehorn it in the current definitions. It isn't logical.
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Offline Parax

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2009, 09:15:31 AM »
^I'd agree with Muzo there, something that can be done in-game doesn't count as modification. Still I'm against allowing it.

Offline Luxray

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2009, 09:21:44 AM »
^I'd agree with Muzo there, something that can be done in-game doesn't count as modification.

Performing a glitch that makes it run in PAL technically means it has been modified. Sure it may be in game, but definitions are definitions. >_>

Also i am also against this. It doesn't make the levels competetive this way since pretty much everyone wil get the same times.

EDIT: possibly restrict this to Freestyle perhaps?
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2009, 09:43:06 AM »
Performing a glitch that makes it run in PAL technically means it has been modified. Sure it may be in game, but definitions are definitions. >_>

"Modification" means the game itself has been changed, and NOTHING changes. A modification would be if a certain combination of events would cause the game to actually modify it's own code. (yes, that can happen in some shoddily programmed games)

Banning a glitch? Fine. Being illogical? For what reason if you can just make a new rule anyway?
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Offline Stefan

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2009, 09:46:44 AM »
I don't see how getting a game that usually runs ntsc to try and run pal could, in any circumstance, not be considered a modification of code.

Offline Luxray

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2009, 09:52:49 AM »
"Modification" means the game itself has been changed, and NOTHING changes. A modification would be if a certain combination of events would cause the game to actually modify it's own code.

derp.

Then tell me, what exactly happened in the video? Did he not follow certain events to change the game? Would this not mean everyone else would have to follow these same events to change the game? And lastly, is the game's code not different? This is a form of modification, even if its completely in game.

EDIT: PS: I'm not trying 100% to get this banned, i merely just pointed out the fallacy in Paraxade's choice in words.
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2009, 09:53:09 AM »
I don't see how getting a game that usually runs ntsc to try and run pal could, in any circumstance, not be considered a modification of code.

That.
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2009, 10:02:00 AM »
Let me say this: it's a difference between changing the game itself or changing the STATE of the game. The game's code doesn't change -- every single byte in the ROM is the same. The state definitely changes -- this glitch messes up a truckload of variables in memory.

What about this clause:
"If the game crashes and resets itself, you must do a proper hard reset before playing".

P.S. Turns out hard reset is actually important. Soft resetting won't get rid of it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 10:07:31 AM by Muzozavr »
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Offline MrSparkle

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2009, 10:03:04 AM »
[09:59] <MrSparkle> this thread is funny, people throwing around words like technically this and technically that
[09:59] <MrSparkle> if this modifies the game, then goign to the next level does too
[10:01] <+Cruizer> then post your reply >_>
[10:01] <MrSparkle> it's hardly modification if the game is programmed to do that
[10:01] <MrSparkle> it did it, so it is programed as such
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Offline Luxray

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2009, 10:04:55 AM »
Let me say this: it's a difference between changing the game itself or changing the STATE of the game. The game's code doesn't change -- every single byte in the ROM is the same. The state definitely changes -- this glitch messes up a truckload of variables in memory.

What about this clause:
"If the game crashes and resets itself, you must reset it properly before playing".

P.S. I'm not Paraxade. :D

I'm not good at understanding emulators...but don't code changes physically change the memory (or something) and not the ROM?
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Offline Parax

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »
Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.

Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2009, 10:06:34 AM »
Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.

QFT.

EDIT:
Quote
but don't code changes physically change the memory
Stuff like Gameshark and such DO change the memory, but that's covered by the "cheat devices" clause.
ROM hacks on the other hand physically change the ROM itself.
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Offline Luxray

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2009, 10:08:36 AM »
Cruizer, it's not a fallacy, modifying the game involves changing the code/programming, level design, etc. Something that can be done on an original copy of the game that has not been modified is in no way any sort of modification. This glitch should not be allowed but claiming that it should be disallowed on the grounds that it's a modification is dumb, because it's not.

Okay that solves this debate.yeah i lost..so what But then these are my grounds for not allowing it:

Also i am also against this. It doesn't make the levels competetive this way since pretty much everyone wil get the same times.

EDIT: possibly restrict this to Freestyle perhaps?


Any arguments to that?

Also EDIT:
EDIT:
Quote
but don't code changes physically change the memory
Stuff like Gameshark and such DO change the memory, but that's covered by the "cheat devices" clause.
ROM hacks on the other hand physically change the ROM itself.

ROM hacks in TUSC kthx.
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2009, 10:12:26 AM »
I didn't say it shouldn't be banned. I said that if you want to ban it, it should be banned properly by making a new rule instead of coming up with illogical whatevers to shoehorn it under the old ones. The old rules are not enough for this glitch, just make a new one.

Freestyle, probably not. The purpose of S3K 1P freestyle is to show off the power of Super/Hyper forms, and it's more interesting to see them compared on the same game speed. Just ban it altogether, then. :P
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2009, 12:14:11 PM »
Modification or not, this should be banned kthxbai.  Seriously, this is a glitch that forces the game to go slower than it is suppose to normally go, why shouldn't it be banned?
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Offline Muzozavr

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2009, 12:28:37 PM »
If you want it banned that's fine. But the rules should be well written, and for that we should define what fits under the current rules and what requires new ones. This requires a new rule.

Otherwise, someone unfamiliar with this topic could later go, check the rules, test the glitch, and figure "ain't no rule" and abuse it. Since currently there ain't no rule, but there SHOULD be one.
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2009, 12:33:23 PM »
That would be a rather unwise decision on their part.

"If something seems iffy, you probably shouldn't be doing it."
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Offline Thorn

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2009, 04:01:12 PM »
Am I the only one noticing that this glitch starts by becoming Super/Hyper to phase through the lava? You can't use Super/Hyper in any zone except Doomsday for TSC competition, so you can't even set up this glitch. Granted, he does show a bit where the lava doesn't load and he drops through that way, but he doesn't pull off the glitch in question that way, so there's a chance that the cause of the "Act 1-2" as he calls it is tied to the lava using RAM when it shouldn't be.

Somebody's going to tell me that the glitch can be carried over to a new zone, and that it should be legal as long as Super/Hyper isn't used in the zone for which the stat is submitted. But if that were the case, then it would be legal to use Super/Hyper in Lava Reef 2 and Death Egg 2 so long as you don't transform in the boss area, which is a separate Zone and Act in the ROM (Lava Reef 2 Boss shares a Zone ID with Hidden Palace, and Death Egg 2 Boss shares a Zone ID with Doomsday). Now somebody will argue that it's a matter of looking at the title cards and treating the zones that way, making those two boss fight examples irrelevant. This is the point I want to focus on.

I say that indeed, up to this point TSC has used the title cards as its basis for ranking: all Act 1s (or at least ones with title cards that say "Act 1") in Sonic 3 & Knuckles actually end in the ROM's Act 2. The transition from one act to another is seamless or covered by a cutscene. This is what makes Lava Reef 2 Boss, Death Egg 2 Boss, and this glitch different: in order to reach the level where you collect your stat, the screen fades to black, and the same zone is on the title card for the intended instances of this, but with the glitch you can access a different zone with a new title card. I'm ignoring the Act number in all of this, because shields can obviously be carried from Act 1 to Act 2. My thought on all of this is that if you can't pull it off in a single zone, it goes against all precedent of how every other stat on the site is obtained -- doing something in one zone has never affected another.
inb4 somebody comes up with an obscure example and tears me a new asshole over it
Since this thinking suggests that the glitch should be banned in all zones except Lava Reef, I would say to extend the ban to that zone as well for rule consistency.

I'm only a forum admin and not a site admin, so I can't set a rule in stone. However, I am on the Rules Committee. My current opinion is to disallow this, and if you want my vote in the committee to be swayed, you need to show me two things:
1. A method to execute the glitch without using Super/Hyper forms, or a convincing explanation as to why it is allowed in this instance so long as it isn't used in a run on which a stat is earned
2. A logical way to explain Zone and Act distinctions (as I did in the last paragraph) that fits the majority of the other charts on TSC and that allows this glitch

What you guys do from here is up to you.
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2009, 04:59:14 PM »
...have there even been any supporters of NOT banning this?  It seems really obvious that this shouldn't stay.  We seriously do not need a compbreaker on THIS game.
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Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2009, 05:25:41 PM »
tl;dr

My suggestion is this rule, for S3K at the very least: "Using an exploit in the game's programming to slow down the game invalidates your time." Kinda sloppy, but there needs to be a rule against this.
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Offline Parax

Re: S3K -- ORKAL DISCOVERS NO-CHEAT SLOW MOTION GLITCH
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2009, 05:56:25 PM »
Modification or not, this should be banned kthxbai.  Seriously, this is a glitch that forces the game to go slower than it is suppose to normally go, why shouldn't it be banned?

Who do you see wanting to allow it?

Thorn, I would think that the rules only apply to what you do during your run. You're basically saying if someone found a way to do it without going super/hyper you would be fine with allowing it?

I'd propose a rule something along the lines of: Using an emulator setting or a glitch to make an NTSC game run in PAL mode is disallowed. Technically if you just say using a glitch to slow down the game is banned then accidentally making the game lag in Sonic 06 invalidates your run which is pretty much impossible to avoid, so.. (thinking of a general rule here, slowing down works if it's S3K specific)

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