Some suggestions and questions regarding charts


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Offline Vixuzen

Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« on: October 26, 2015, 02:40:19 PM »
Well, I've been on this site for a while now and I would like to suggest some ideas for charts and ask some questions regarding them:

Super Sonic Charts for:
-Sonic 1 for Android
-Sonic 2
-Sonic 2 for Android
-Sonic 3
-Sonic & Knuckles
-Sonic Lost World (WiiU)
-Sonic Lost World (3DS)

Let's Start off with Sonic 4 Episode I and II and Sonic Colors (Wii). They have their Super Sonic Charts and in Sonic Generations there's no restriction regarding Super Sonic, so why not add SS charts in games listed above?

Ring & Score Charts for:

-Casino Night Zone in Sonic 2
-Twinkle Park and Lost World in Sonic Adventure
-Casino Park and BINGO Highway in Sonic Heroes

As for S2: there's 10 minute limit and in Marble Zone 2 from Sonic 1 and Launch Base Zone 1 & 2 you can use a glitch that could give you infinite points if not for the time limit.
As for SADX: in Knuckles' stages there's a rule, that doesn't allow getting infinite rings through digging, so why not make a rule in TP and LW saying: "you can't press a button spawning rings more than once"? Also in SA2B if you DO pick up rings that make you brake the rules BUT if you keep the track of how many rings have been obtained that way, you can simply substract them from your total.
As for SH and S2: Maybe you could add a rule saying, that you can't get any rings through slot machines? (Something similiar to Knuckles and Rouge stages in SA2B)

Score Charts for:

-Sonic Heroes
-Sonic Unleashed PS3/360

As for SH: Maybe a rule disallowing competitors to use the glitch, that gives you infinite points? In SA2B (City Escape, Metal Harbour and all mech stages) there's a restriction to how many times you can get certain score bonus (e.g. max 20 cars in CE).
As for SU360: My argument is the same as for SH, but there are some stages that dont have any glitch, that allow for infinite combo bonuses (Windmill Isle 1 maybe?) So maybe add at least those?

Ring and eventually Score Charts for Boss stages in:

-Sonic Adventure
-Sonic Adventure 2
-Sonic Heroes
-Shadow The Hedgehog
-Sonic Unleashed PS3/360
-Sonic Colors (Wii)
-Sonic Generations
-Sonic Generations (3DS)

I know "maxing ring stats would be really easy", but Sonic 4 Episode I and II and Sonic '06 have ring charts for bosses, so why not?

Also how about adding some of the more popular hacks/fan-games, like Sonic After and Before the Sequel or The S Factor?

That's all I wanted to suggest and ask (well, at least for now anyway...) so thanks for reading this wall of text.





TL;DR
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 06:58:22 PM by Vixuzen »

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 07:21:45 PM »
we use to have a place dedicated for fan made games that didn't go very well. but the real problem I think, was the only way to get to it was clicking a small random icon with no description attached to it in the left side bar. I was here for like 4 or 5 years before I learned it existed, and now its gone... and if its still some where in anyform they are hiding it even better now.

At this point I dont think anyone would be against adding fan made games or extra charts to existing games, the real road block we have is that theres only like one person here who knows how to add charts to this site, and that person is busy like all the time.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Groudon

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Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 07:45:10 PM »
Score Charts for:
-Sonic Unleashed PS3/360

As for SU360: My argument is the same as for SH, but there are some stages that dont have any glitch, that allow for infinite combo bonuses (Windmill Isle 1 maybe?) So maybe add at least those?

This is the only one I feel strongly about.  The reason given for removing all night score charts was "due to infinite score potential in the majority of stages", which I still think is BS 6 years later.  It's not like there's only one stage unaffected.  4 of the 12 on-disc stages don't have the exploit, while 7 of the 16 DLC stages don't.

Offline Eco Kenneth Nathan

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 07:59:28 PM »
I hope the TSC adds glitch less run version charts for the games. That way they can have both glitch used records and normal records for that category of the games.

Offline Groudon

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Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 08:07:38 PM »
I hope the TSC adds glitch less run version charts for the games. That way they can have both glitch used records and normal records for that category of the games.

People will always disagree on what should be considered a glitch, and as Paraxade put it in an interview from a few years ago, you'd have to make a ruling on a lot of things more subtle than breaking out of bounds or blast glitching.
blah blah loltssz

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 08:12:43 PM »
I think its pretty straight forward "GLITCHLESS" runs... maybe theres a small number of accidental glitches that need to adressed (or just ban sonic06 completely). but for the most part, even an accidental glitch will/would void your stat.
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Offline Vixuzen

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 01:09:36 PM »
Regarding S2/S2-13, I personally think banning slot machines is stupid. I've actually tried attempting maxes via slot machines in S2, and it took me an average of 8 hours (and I believe some people discredited the charts because it was "easy to max" iirc). Additionally, it actually gets somewhat close between score grinding with perfect bonus (assuming its possible) vs. 999 with score grinding (because I was never left with too much time to do grinding anyways).

OK, I see the point.

Regarding SADX, those charts used to exist and actually still do (but you can't submit to them) if you know how to look. Personally I feel that's a bit of an iffy one. Comparing it to SA2 is not the same; SADX depends on ? boxes and SA2 does not, so it was easier to tell in SA2 just how many rings you dug up etc. With SADX, its entirely possible you can lose track and pick up additional ring(s) without knowing it, and due to the nature of random boxes, the world may never know.

Again, I see the point, but in SADX, despite the fact that there are ? ring boxes, there's still a rule: "Rings you dig up and collect as Knuckles don't count.". I should have mentioned that in the main post.

Regarding Heroes...well, that's 9 easy maxes (Chaotix CP requires you to get rings, and you already can't use the back ring for RA purposes). Chaotix CP I think has an easy max too, not sure. Additionally "banning slot machines" would be very hard to enforce considering you're controlling 3 members, not just one.

Oops... I guess I forgot what was CP objective for Chaotix and the fact, that your teammates can basically get rings for you in slot machines. It's probably because I hadn't played Sonic Heroes for quite a while now...

I don't have a strong opinion on SA boss ring/score charts either way. I don't really see an outstanding reason to deny them (but almost all charts would be easily maxable, since the 5k time bonus limit would be rigid in many cases, since that takes 1 minute to start dropping).

Look at e.g. Special charts for Sonic 1 (46 out of 72 players have max stats) and Rings charts for S3D (42 out of 83 players have max stats). They have easy maxable stats, yet they still exist.
About the scores; Chaos 0 would definetely be easily maxable, but Final Egg for Gamma is easily maxable too (51 out of 114 have max score) and it still exists. Perfect Chaos on the other hand would be pretty interesting (i guess) because of the fact, that your ring count keeps lowering and there's a limited supply of them too.

Re: Glitchless runs

What would be defined as a glitch? Let's start with that.

Well, I guess it depends on a game. In most of Genesis games (and their remakes perhaps) there are zips and slope glitch. As for Adventure games; continuously dying and hitting the same enemy to complete treasure hunting stages in ~5 seconds, while not a glitch, is a pretty big abuse of something the creators didn't probably notice.
Also, still in SADX: Tails Flight glitch (mainly in Speed Highway), Clipping glitches (mainly in Sonic's Casinopolis, Ice Cap and Lost World), Time Stop glitch (Sonic's Casinopolis and Twinkle Park), Jumping out of the rollercoaster (Sonic's Twinkle Park), Gravity glitch (Lost World), This: https://youtu.be/_4dGyB-loOA?t=9s
In SA2B:Clipping glitches, Sonic's Bounce glitch.
In Shadow: "infinite" Chaos Control glitch.
In Sonic '06: ... I guess the "High Jump Landing" glitch (Omega, Knuckles and Rouge: the glitch, where, when landing on ground the character is sent up high), no abusing of Purple Gem (Sonic), Silver's Air Dash glitch (the one, where he flies forwards farther than he's supposed to).
In SU360 and SG: M-Speed, D-Speed and Clipping glitch.
In most racing games: doing a lap without actually doing it (e.g. Sonic R - spiining in place near the begging), Respawn Glitch (All Stars Racing)

Those are just few examples, but in general: glitchless run would probably be considered a run, where you didn't purposely use any glitches that give you clear advantage.

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 10:15:30 PM »
Good topic, interesting read and suggestions. There was a few points mentioned in SADX, that I often wondered about myself.

Though RAing/SAing TP and LW would have been a major MAJOR pain, I never saw any particular reason why they were redacted thinking about it. Sticking to the general respawning rule isn't hard to follow.
LW has just one button end of level, TP does a few buttons around the rooftops (but still wouldn't be hard to keep track of which ones you've pressed).
Keeping to these rules, is no different to making sure SH's bell/CAS's slot machines legitimately.

Regarding SADX boss scores - this was something I often thought about when RAing Perfect Chaos for Sonic life grinding. I can see a lot of easy tied WRs, but a few bosses that can't be done under 1min and Gamma's ones would be interesting.

As for S2....getting 999 rings on slot machines is an insane challenge (as Hyper has proved :P). I get the fact that slot machines on S2 would be S2's only luck related RA (and very few I imagine would put in the work for that) but luck related RA's exist in many other games I see no reason why it should be disallowed for S2.

In terms of glitches....I guess there's the realisation factor of if there's a glitch to gain a better record, that time will stand above all - as Hyper basically put it.
Personally, I dislike many of SADX glitches - since I kinda suck at glitches I guess lol. (I mean, the Tails flight glitch in SH - I couldn't beat my non-glitched time....I'm pretty slow at the Tails CAS glitch, the Sonic CAS glitch, etc). However, I do think these kind of glitches are necessary for competition.   

As for TP's/CAS's monitor glitch in TP and CAS, its a cool trick but that's the one I'd like (and think) should be banned. Stopping the timer <1sec in the run is hardly speedrunning. Especially, since you then need to beat the level to count the time anyway. Though I guess Sonic's IC that happens as well, but at least for that you need to speedrun properly until the end of act 2 and the timer is stopped for you. Plus I HATED speedrunning Tail's IC so I never want to see Sonic's IC clip unbanned. Ever.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 10:25:22 PM »
I see no problem in allowing sadx boss score charts, and I will always point to sonic rush boss score charts if anyone wants to argue about them being too easy tied WR's
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Vixuzen

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2015, 09:00:29 AM »
we use to have a place dedicated for fan made games that didn't go very well. but the real problem I think, was the only way to get to it was clicking a small random icon with no description attached to it in the left side bar. I was here for like 4 or 5 years before I learned it existed, and now its gone... and if its still some where in anyform they are hiding it even better now.

At this point I dont think anyone would be against adding fan made games or extra charts to existing games, the real road block we have is that theres only like one person here who knows how to add charts to this site, and that person is busy like all the time.

You mean this site: http://unofficial.soniccenter.org/ ? It seems to be down. Do you remember how this icon looked like maybe? Just wondering.

Offline Groudon

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Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2015, 09:02:18 AM »
we use to have a place dedicated for fan made games that didn't go very well. but the real problem I think, was the only way to get to it was clicking a small random icon with no description attached to it in the left side bar. I was here for like 4 or 5 years before I learned it existed, and now its gone... and if its still some where in anyform they are hiding it even better now.

At this point I dont think anyone would be against adding fan made games or extra charts to existing games, the real road block we have is that theres only like one person here who knows how to add charts to this site, and that person is busy like all the time.

You mean this site: http://unofficial.soniccenter.org/ ? It seems to be down. Do you remember how this icon looked like maybe? Just wondering.


Offline Vixuzen

Re: Some suggestions and questions regarding charts
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2015, 10:24:05 AM »


Oh... I've never seen that.

Also, I just thought of something;
About rings charts in boss stages: Sonic 3D Blast has rings charts for bosses and there are barely any not maxed stats.

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